AHC: Improve the Polish performance in 1939

While all these new and improved weapons are nice, you should really look at better radio communications and increasing the level of motorization within the Army.
Having the Poles develop and deploy a functioning radar system would be helpful in air defense.
 

Deleted member 1487

While all these new and improved weapons are nice, you should really look at better radio communications and increasing the level of motorization within the Army.
Having the Poles develop and deploy a functioning radar system would be helpful in air defense.
We're getting into ASB territory there, given that the French didn't even have a system in 1940. Same thing with producing sufficient trucks and radios when again even the French didn't have enough with a far larger economy.
 

Driftless

Donor
From a US Army historical website:

Organization of Polish Infantry - 1939 (a .pdf file)

(snip) and increasing the level of motorization within the Army.
(snip)

I found the link shown above while casting about for information on Polish Army trucks, half-tracks, cars, etc in 1939. I really couldn't find much data out there. I found a few isolated references to Fiat & Ursus trucks; plus a photo of a Citroen-Kegresse half track, and a military configured Fiat automobile.
 
Last edited:
Poland has obtained an export credit of a billion franc in September 1936 for buy French weaponry but i don't know if they were able to use it. Maybe they can buy the AMC 35 tank and the MS 406.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
-With one or several relatively minor POD (meaning modifications about armament/strategy/foreign policy) which remain plausible (I don't think Poland could have produced hundred of medium tanks for example or would have become Germany's ally), try to improve Polish Army's performance.
If this is acceptable to you, you could try having the Intermarium project somehow come to fruition after the end of World War I; indeed, this would give Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union a much harder fight in their attempts at expansion. Of course, the effects of the creation of such an Intermarium would begin being visible way before 1939.
 

Insider

Banned
We're getting into ASB territory there, given that the French didn't even have a system in 1940. Same thing with producing sufficient trucks and radios when again even the French didn't have enough with a far larger economy.
Not entirely ASB. It may sound far fetched but Poles did make research into radio location. There is a prewar installation that was "probably" devoted for that purpose. Now it is located near Polish-Ukrainian border, in Carpathian Mountains. It is in the middle of nowhere both now, and then, and this "astronomical observatory" was build mostly by military funds. However it is unknown what exactly was going on out there because every paper or device that existed was destroyed before Red Army or Wehrmacht could lay their hands on them, while most of the personel got killed or scattered in next six years. As for radios, Poland had a company producing either at least top notch radios at Wilna.

II Rzeczpospolita, a country willing to let majority live in poverty to make few pet projects excel
 

Don Quijote

Banned
While all these new and improved weapons are nice, you should really look at better radio communications and increasing the level of motorization within the Army.
Having the Poles develop and deploy a functioning radar system would be helpful in air defense.
Definitely this. When in combat the P.11c did fairly well, and having a slightly improved model is going to have only a very small effect. A well organised air defence system, with reliable communications that don't break down when tested in war, would be a more worthwhile change. The obvious problem is that unlike Fighter Command, Poland doesn't have the luxury of the Channel, so its system would face attack from the ground as well as the air.

Motorisation might help too, but I'm not sure about Poland's fuel situation in 1939.
 
While all these new and improved weapons are nice, you should really look at better radio communications and increasing the level of motorization within the Army.
Having the Poles develop and deploy a functioning radar system would be helpful in air defense.
Interesting but costly idea and Polish economy isn't the strongest of the region. Motorization could be achieved but only to a limited extent (perhaps a few more cavalry brigades could be converted). radio communications is possible but again to a limited extent. Radar IMHO is impossible.

From a US Army historical website:

Organization of Polish Infantry - 1939 (a .pdf file)

I found the link shown above while casting about for information on Polish Army trucks, half-tracks, cars, etc in 1939. I really couldn't find much data out there. I found a few isolated references to Fiat & Ursus trucks; plus a photo of a Citroen-Kegresse half track, and a military configured Fiat automobile.
That PDF is great! Thanks!

Poland has obtained an export credit of a billion franc in September 1936 for buy French weaponry but i don't know if they were able to use it. Maybe they can buy the AMC 35 tank and the MS 406.
MS 406 fighters wouldn't hurt. the AMC 35 tank is a good idea: a good "cavalry tank" (French expression here) which can beat a panzer III and probably a IV. However France had difficulties at producing them (1936 and the nationalizations didn't help) so Poland would only have a small number of these. Unless they begin to produce a licensed version.

If this is acceptable to you, you could try having the Intermarium project somehow come to fruition after the end of World War I; indeed, this would give Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union a much harder fight in their attempts at expansion. Of course, the effects of the creation of such an Intermarium would begin being visible way before 1939.

Whoo, this is "grandiose", even by Pidulski's standards! Considering the problem of Vilnius, Lithuania is already going to cause a lot of problems for this. Czechoslovakia: why not. Romania, sure. Ukraine would need a better handled 1920 war and a less greedy Poland for territories in the East.

Definitely this. When in combat the P.11c did fairly well, and having a slightly improved model is going to have only a very small effect. A well organised air defence system, with reliable communications that don't break down when tested in war, would be a more worthwhile change. The obvious problem is that unlike Fighter Command, Poland doesn't have the luxury of the Channel, so its system would face attack from the ground as well as the air.

Motorisation might help too, but I'm not sure about Poland's fuel situation in 1939.
With Romania as a benevolent neutral or even an ally, the fuel situation wouldn't cause much trouble I think.
 
Any POD will be dwarfed by the ultimate POD which is to stop the Soviets joining in. Otherwise you are just making Poland lose more slowly.

When considering possible PODs one must begin with the available Polish economy and industry. To push the air or ground forces means taking away from one to give to the other.

How crucial was the Luftwaffe's support to the advance of the army?

Would a speedier mobilisation getting more troops in the front earlier and further forward be a better investment than in arms technology? It could be that one would be better off establishing a dense radio system to enhance command and control to use existing forces to better effect than by giving better weapons to troops who are not being used effectively.

There is a risk that we are making better deck chairs for the Titanic.
 
Ok, lets start with airplanes:

1. Hispano-Suiza engines. Poland actually wanted to use them (that's why PZL-1 was powered by one) but IIRC Hispano-Suiza wanted too much money for licence, so Polish airplanes ended up with licence produced (since 1931? I think) Bristol engines. That said there were talks with Wright about licencing their engines at the time, so instead of Bristol Jupiter, then Mercury and Pegasus Polish airforce could have used Wright Cyclone engines.

2. Fighters - the reason why Polish airforce used PZL-11 in 1939 was because of failure of PZL-38/39 development programs, which come from failure in developing the intended engine (PZL Foka). Interstingly, IIRC operational requirements for a plane that later turned into PZL-38 (twin engine fighter/bomber) didn't demand twin engine installation, so it may have ended as a single engine plane. Considering that PZL-38 program started in 1934 then IATL the same program could have ended with single engine fighter, with first flight in 1936/7, entry into service in 1938. Assuming it using Bristol Mercury 8 engine (840 hp max), it could have top speed of 470-480 km/h, armed with 4 MG and capable of carrying a single 300 kg bomb.

3. Light bombers - PZL-23 or equivalent was necessary as otherwise Poland would be using Potez 25 in 1939... but PZL-23 could have been better if it was made as 2-man plane, not 3 - it would be lighter and faster.

I'll post more later.
 
Re tanks. Everyone loves tank technology. But in 1939 the German tanks were still vulnerable to a good anti tank rifle. Anti tank rifles are vastly cheaper than tanks both in capital and support and well trained users can use them on distant or dug in infantry and field artillery (the Royal Marines in early 1945 were asking for Boys anti tank rifles again to deal with dug in positions).

The Swiss mobilisation system has potential for an early response to even an unexpected invasion.

An investment in a Polish military radio industry can be offset by it's application and income from domestic radio sales, conceivably creating a whole new area of civilian industry and export (apologies to the OTL Polish radio industry).
 
I shouldn't be surprised, but I still am, every time I see how much importance is given to rivet-counting. Seriously, some MG with a slightly different mechanism or rate of fire, or some slightly more powerful aircraft engine is going to make a significant difference?

The obvious trump card would be accepting a Polish-French-British-Soviet alliance. With our hindsight, even if the Soviet troops moved in and didn't, after the German defeat, relinquish some border region in the East, that doesn't hold a candle to what happened to Poland historically. But with the knowledge decision makers had at the time, this borders ASB territory.

Barring that, here you go:
1. Drop the destroyers. However small, they serve no purpose. Build a couple more submarines instead, a handful of fast torpedo boats, and use the balance for the Wojsko Polskie.
2. Reduce the number of bombers. No need to spend more on more or better fighters; the Lotnictwo Wojskowe is a wasting asset anyway and it did, in OTL, cause enough attrition to the Luftwaffe. That's the max one can expect in any case.
3. Cut down the number of cavalry brigades. Really not needed. Four should suffice.
4. With all the money thus spared, organize first two armored brigades, with just about any kind of light tank in the tank battalion, provided it comes with a 37mm gun at least. Truck-mounted infantry, motorized artillery a bit more abundant than in OTL, AA battery. With the balance, improve signals and communications, then motorize a couple of infantry divisions, and if possible a bit of the artillery in general. If you still have money, add AA batteries (even light caliber ones are OK), and more standard AT batteries (no need to change guns, just add numbers, ammunition, motorization). If you can still spare something, buy mines. Any spare change, upgrade all the tankettes to a 20mm gun.
5. Don't wait to mobilize. And put everything West save the ON, if the Soviets come in you're toast anyway, your best bet is to delay the Germans enough to have the French involved and Stalin doubting whether the time has come.
6. Fight only delaying actions in Pomerania initially, don't deploy too far forward. This is costly, politically, but necessary.
7. Use the ON and reserve units that aren't on the Eastern border to attack Prussia on multiple sides. It doesn't matter if they don't make much headway, the point is to have the Germans worried and counter their narrative of success all along the front.
8. Use those few bombers for a demonstrative night raid on Berlin and another on Bratislava. Sure, the enemy will retaliate on your cities - they'll bomb them anyway starting on day one, and much worse, so, again for propaganda purposes, do that.
 
8. Use those few bombers for a demonstrative night raid on Berlin and another on Bratislava. Sure, the enemy will retaliate on your cities - they'll bomb them anyway starting on day one, and much worse, so, again for propaganda purposes, do that.

Apparently Polish bombers were going to attack troop concentrations into German/Slovak territory, but were asked by the French and British to not do so since it would reduce the possibilities of a negotiated peace.
 
The Poles did well under h circumstances. They were too reliant on the forward defense of the western border. Perhaps a more successful counter offensive on the Bzura might have prolonged the campaign a little longer. However defeat was inevitable since the Anglo French were in no position to mount a real offensive of their own
 
Apparently Polish bombers were going to attack troop concentrations into German/Slovak territory, but were asked by the French and British to not do so since it would reduce the possibilities of a negotiated peace.

I've read about that but never found hard evidence. In any case, sure, bombing Berlin is going to enrage Parisians and the French government. So what. We're talking about the most that might be done, here, not what would have been likely taking into account misplaced political cautiousness.
 
So the Pormoze and Poznan Armies weren't too much located in the West?
Sadly I'm French. I'm relatively fluent in English (at least enough to read books).

They were in the context of the German Army of 1939. Polish strategy & operations were based on the world of 1938 or earlier. I don't know if they understood the changes or not, but they lacked time to adapt.
 
Well, it wasn't an LMG, it was an automatic rifle. It was certainly behind the times, as it was a WW1 design and not even using the quality upgrades the Belgians made, nor even the improvements other American designers had made. Still the Poles themselves made some improvements:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_wz._1928
They reduced the weight and used the Belgian improvements. It's interesting that they found it superior to all the other options (doesn't look like they considered the Czech ZB-26). Apparently the Germans even found it useful enough to make use of captured Polish BARs. SLA Marshall found that they were one of the best weapons of the Korean War and were great as a SAW. IMHO it was too overpowered for it's role, but it was a highly reliable design and copies of elements of the design were incorporated into post-war FN weapons like the FN MAG.
Apparently the Poles liked it so much they modified it into an aircraft gun. They could have modified it into a true LMG/MMG with a belt feed system.
The thing is they just needed to find a system they liked enough to modify it into a GPMG for the LMG and MMG roles, perhaps also preserving the auto rifle role.
Still I'm very partial to the ZB30 becoming an early Uz vz.59:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uk_vz._59

Not botching the licence agreement would help. There would be more available, perhaps time to modify the design earlier.
 
Top