AHC Improve the French military during WW 1

I was re reading my copy of the Guns of August recently and wanted to know how we could change the French military mindset at the time to place an equalled emphasis on defence vs attack?

Although it is understandable how a defeat like Sedan could scar a country, what changes would be required for the French General Staff to accept a defensive posture due to their borders?

What changes could their military implement, that would be reasonably foreseeable such as subdued fields uniforms?

Additionally what type of POD would be required for the changes that General Michel wanted to implement to occur?
 
I was re reading my copy of the Guns of August recently and wanted to know how we could change the French military mindset at the time to place an equalled emphasis on defence vs attack?

Although it is understandable how a defeat like Sedan could scar a country, what changes would be required for the French General Staff to accept a defensive posture due to their borders?

What changes could their military implement, that would be reasonably foreseeable such as subdued fields uniforms?

Additionally what type of POD would be required for the changes that General Michel wanted to implement to occur?
Well, for one it would help if France had kept Alsace Lorraine.
 
I think that it would all depend on an end to the obsession of the cult of the offensive.

Which was not suited to either to manpower, geography or possible enemy.
 
actual intelligent observation of the russo japanese war and the balkan wars resulting in

1. vastly increased shell stock piles with infrastructure and planning for rapid production expansion
2. landscape colored uniforms
3. provision of mobile field kitchens
4. larger scale integration of machine guns
5. replacement of all 1870s debange heavy cannons with long recoil heavy howitzers
6. actually pay the army something like a living wage so they could attract more junior officers of higher talent
 

BlondieBC

Banned
The previous War Plan was more defensive than OTL war plan. It was changed because of two outrages done by Prussian officer in A-L. Take these away, and the French likely met the Germans in Belgium in a war of maneuver. Yes, the French still have problems but they are fighting the war they planned on fighting. Instead IOTL, they attacked into fortifications in A-L, largely for political reasons.

And the French are really fortuniate, they can keep the lines largely in Belgium so they fell less need to save "sacred French soil".
 

BlondieBC

Banned
I think that it would all depend on an end to the obsession of the cult of the offensive.

Which was not suited to either to manpower, geography or possible enemy.

The tough part is that the lesson you want the French to learn was true largely only in France and Italy, where terrain and force ratios made attacking harder. Even in these theaters, the Germans often took no heavier losses on the attack than the defense. In the east, there were hugely successful offensives, along with ones that were poor decisions to attack. When technologies change, it is hard enough to learn the general lessons before you fight the war. Even harder to learn the more specific lesson.

And it was only about a 20-30 year period where defensive warfare was supreme. Just as the machine gun and men-to-front ratios made the offensive difficult, the airplane, tank, and truck made offensive again the best option.

And then you get to even more profound changes. If the French really understood the losses and resource consumed by an industrial war, they likely change their diplomacy. And being a democracy, this knowledge has to be shared by some extent by the public. Which means the other foreign powers also will have access to this information. People like to talk about the red/blue uniforms, but the change was blocked by politicians not generals. Seems like Germany only change over within 10 years of the war. A-H was in the process of changing. The need to attack is driven by the need to reclaim A-L, outrages in A-L, and the glory of Napoleon. Once you see a war of maneuver, you end up with lighter equipment.

Now I think there are many small POD that give you a better French army. But going to full defensive mindset (we sit behind the fortresses in WW1) is a very hard and complicated POD. It almost certainly butterflies away WW1, and failing that WW1 as we know it. For example, building a large set of fortress lines west of A-L and Belgium means the Germans likely have the option of War Plan Attack Russia First still around. If this is true, the Germany will likely utilize it, since this is what the Kaiser wanted, but could not. So German does not declare war on France, but instead France declares war on Germany. And if France stays on the defensive, how will they save Russia from the mauling Germans. Germany had 7/8 of their forces going west. It is probably under 5/8 if France sits behind defensive lines. There are just so many butterflies to the changes you ask for it you want the full "defensive mindset".

Now if you mean, "In 1915, France sits on the defensive but we don't change things prewar", you are giving the CP a win. The Germans were mauling the Russians who had been retreating for months. Then a combined Anglo-French offensive makes the Germans send over 300 battalions west. If the French are more passive, the Germans will keep advancing to the east in 1915 from August to snow fall. This will create some big issues for Russia as they German armies drive deep into what is now Belarus. The Alan Island chain of defensive is undefensible. German will have a lot more land to loot. Since the Russians did get some refugees out in advance of the Germans, there will be an even worse food situation for Russia. Even if the Russians have successes like in 1916 with Brusilov, ITTL, the attacks will happen several hundred miles farther east and be easier for the CP to deal with.

I know Haig and various French leaders get blame for so many dead. But all a passive set of leaders does for France is to lose the war. There were no good choices, only bad ones. You attacked at high losses and hoped to win (OTL and it worked), you allow the CP to win, or you make a peace deal on the CP terms which are likely harsh. You have to accept the CP offers of the time, not wish the CP accepts terms the Entente likes. Once mobilization started, all good options ended.
 
The tough part is that the lesson you want the French to learn was true largely only in France and Italy, where terrain and force ratios made attacking harder. Even in these theaters, the Germans often took no heavier losses on the attack than the defense. In the east, there were hugely successful offensives, along with ones that were poor decisions to attack. When technologies change, it is hard enough to learn the general lessons before you fight the war. Even harder to learn the more specific lesson.

Beautifully argued Blondie, however in the true style of AH.com my intention was for France to end the cult of offensive at all costs. Hence to have a more balanced set of strategic goals.

During the OTL the French learnt quickly the effects of massed artillery and machine gun fire on an attack. Accordingly they changed their doctrine and tactics, a good case in point from memory is the Somme.

So what I am after is how could France minimise her casualties, while maximisining her impact?
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Beautifully argued Blondie, however in the true style of AH.com my intention was for France to end the cult of offensive at all costs. Hence to have a more balanced set of strategic goals.

During the OTL the French learnt quickly the effects of massed artillery and machine gun fire on an attack. Accordingly they changed their doctrine and tactics, a good case in point from memory is the Somme.

So what I am after is how could France minimise her casualties, while maximisining her impact?

Use the 1911 Plan. It really is that simple. Politics overrode the Generals, and worked poorly. With this plan, France is largely on the defensive near A-L, and so is Germany. Local actions by division commanders mostly. The French Army marches into Belgium to meet Germany. France will likely keep a lot of here industrial region. Then as they are not fighting for sacred French soil, it least allows the Generals room to make wiser decisions.
 
So in TTL the French persevere with War Plan 1911, the German High Command with the Schlieffen plan and their march is stopped in Belgium.

How does this play out? In this scenario is there a greater likelihood of a diplomatic outcome or will we continue to the bitter end? This is before we consider the ramifications for the Eastern front.
 

Cook

Banned
1. vastly increased shell stock piles with infrastructure and planning for rapid production expansion
Bit of a problem with that; the centre of French industry was in the region between Paris and the Belgian border, much of which was overrun in the first weeks of the war.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
So in TTL the French persevere with War Plan 1911, the German High Command with the Schlieffen plan and their march is stopped in Belgium.

How does this play out? In this scenario is there a greater likelihood of a diplomatic outcome or will we continue to the bitter end? This is before we consider the ramifications for the Eastern front.

Each side tended to have an understanding of the othersides plan in prewar years. It is even discussed in books. In 1911, the Germans still had a war plan to attack Russia first. The conversion to only have the Schlieffen plan might be butterflied away. You might also get the Germans to have different military budget or diplomatic position.

But in the majority of ATL with this POD, you get the strength of the French Army hitting the bulk of the German army. You need someone who understands the plans better to give a good answer, but the lines quite easily could be stopped in Belgium. And there is a 95% chance that Germany holds less French land than OTL. There is a small chance the French screw up somewhere and lose an army. When you attack aggressively, odd things can happen. I don't see a diplomatic solution. People were calling for a negotiated peace by late 1915 IOTL. It is what most neutral observes thought was wise for all sides. But too much had been lost and the leaders did not want peace. War goes on. I think you go to bitter end, and CP loses a faster assuming all additional countries enter the war about on time.

We can't say for sure, since it is a big enough change, we likely butterfly away OTL strategic decisions. Falkenhayn might go Russia first. Germany might not be able to get initiative in 1915 in east. A-H might not attack Italy, ever. But it is unlikely the Entente do worse than OTL unless the USA does not come into the war. Anytime you flip a big battle in WW1 to a win for the other side, the side that wins normally does a lot better.
 
So in TTL the French persevere with War Plan 1911, the German High Command with the Schlieffen plan and their march is stopped in Belgium.

How does this play out? In this scenario is there a greater likelihood of a diplomatic outcome or will we continue to the bitter end? This is before we consider the ramifications for the Eastern front.

~~~Brutal First half year of the war as both sides hammer at each other in Belgium in fluid battle of manuver to try and outflank each other. Then both sides get the joy of trying to make feild fortifications in the Ardennes and along the eminently defndable lines as first planned by the Generals.
Also with that note the Germans may be forced to Keep more men in the West and have fewer available in the East.
 
Bit of a problem with that; the centre of French industry was in the region between Paris and the Belgian border, much of which was overrun in the first weeks of the war.

taking care of the other items would probably see the germans not drive so deeply into french territory
 
We can't say for sure, since it is a big enough change, we likely butterfly away OTL strategic decisions. Falkenhayn might go Russia first. Germany might not be able to get initiative in 1915 in east. A-H might not attack Italy, ever. But it is unlikely the Entente do worse than OTL unless the USA does not come into the war. Anytime you flip a big battle in WW1 to a win for the other side, the side that wins normally does a lot better.

I agree. If France has a better industry, more french supplies can be sent earlier to Russia. Without losing her North-east, France can produce more and can reach max industrial capacities earlier (spring or summer 1915 not 1916). she can help and supply russian forces with older stuff (75mm guns in russia if ITTl the french start using 105 or 155 mm guns in the early 1910s).
A french army in 1914 with more machinguns (OTL 6 per regiment in 1914 and 24 in 1916), the "reseda" uniform (you can generalize the reseda steel helmet of the artillery men), heavier guns and good cavalry tactics in defensive positions will be amazing.

With better thinkers in the army, the french army can use the infiltration infantry tactic in 1917 with tanks and planes. Captain andre laffargue published a pamphlet about it in 1916 and wrote a book in 1917.OTL, Foch supported laffargue but not Gamelin.

http://archive.org/details/attackintrenchw00laffgoog

If the war start as OTL, the CP must gamble everything on one front : France or Russia. I think it will be France first as OTL because Russia is slower to mobilize, lesser immediate threat and can support more territorial losses before breaking. Germany can kill France in one campaign not Russia. They will go for it because they need a short war. A better french army is a bigger threat but also a better prey (as OTL) for the germans than Russia.

German/A-H reactions to a better french army after 1905 ?
- Italy in the war on CP side ? ITTL an absolute necessity in late 1914 but very hard to obtain before/after the declaration of war : block the armee d afrique in north africa and disturb the mediterranean sea roads. Two fronts war for france.
- Bulgaria and Ottoman Empire involve earlier ?
- german/austrian armored cars ? Difficult to conceal and easy to copy.
- they didn't see the french new model army ? Implausible for me....but pride and nationalism can do strange things. (Where is my red trousers ?)

Detaille (survived after 1912), painter, ITTL. " La tenue Reseda, c est la France". When in 1918 the innovative french army try a camouflage uniform. :)
 
The Resada uniform is still reasonably attractive as one would expect from the French and light years beyond their original uniform.

I may have to do more research about Captain Laffargue, rather interesting man. A two front war against France in 1914 / 1915 would be rather tough...

This all stems from a TL of mine, where I realised I needed a better understanding of France in this period if I wanted to have realistic change.
 
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