AHC Improve the Cambodian military

[La Rouge Beret]

So I am drafting a TL where the Cambodian - Thai skirmish over the Preah Vihear Temple becomes larger. So I want to create a reasonable in both size and capability Cambodian military to oppose the Royal Thai Army, Air Force and Navy. So as for armaments think of anything from 2006 onwards if that helps.

I am not envisaging anything farcical such as Cambodian F-15's or even F-16's, would it be possible for them to operate fast jets? Would Mig - 29's be reasonable for instance? There would be contested air superiority... alternatively I was thinking of using Vietnamese fighter aircraft, but the butterflies are large.

For reference here is the current wiki page with an approximate idea of strength

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_Military

The Army perhaps a greater amount of mechanisation due to the high instances of land mines, perhaps? Happy to discuss on potential purchases... both western and former eastern bloc designs are fine.

The Navy I was contemplating the Italian Navy selling two of their Commandante class patrol ships. Happy to discuss on this point as well.

 

[Pangur]

To be able to match the Thai F-16s they will need you go for the Mig 29 or the Mirage 2000. I would also consider adding Mil-24's I am not so sure about armour. The Hinds will be able to help matches things to some degree but not enough I would think. Perhaps the Leopard 1 or maybe Leopard 2?

 

[La Rouge Beret]

To be able to match the Thai F-16s they will need you go for the Mig 29 or the Mirage 2000. I would also consider adding Mil-24's I am not so sure about armour. The Hinds will be able to help matches things to some degree but not enough I would think. Perhaps the Leopard 1 or maybe Leopard 2?

Yeah I am leaning towards the Mig - 29 simply because of simplicity with maintaining the aircraft and the Soviet reputation for ease of repair. I had thought about the Mil - 24, but I am not sure about it purely for costs... would have to do more research. Definitely thinking of Mi - 8's for their sheer ruggedness and versatility. Overall I am trying to keep the number of aircraft types to a minimum, another option that I could utilise would be to cede air superiority and utilise Ka - 50's for interdiction over the battlefield.

Hadn't considered the Leo 1 or 2, either would probably be a good buy. Although if I am considering my eastern bloc focus the TR - 85 seems a reasonable mix or if I want to induce a Macauley orgasm then retrofitted Centurions.

What about IFV's like the BMP 2 / 3?

 

[Pangur]

If costs are a factor in your thinking then you could go for the Aérospatiale Alouette II or have the reunited Germany sell the Mil-24 they got their hands on after reunification.

The TR-85 is worth looking at for sure however how does that stack up cost wiise? The Centurions would be very nice as well IFV`s? The BMP-2 is not a bad pick

I would suspect that what it would come down to would be a combination of money and what nations are willing to not just sell to them but also provide the training and support

 

[La Rouge Beret]

And that is the point about choosing a platform that can perform reliably in the field with rudimentary training and a haphazard logistical supply train.

My thoughts are the first MBT would consist of a T-55 MBT's left by the Vietnamese Army when they left Cambodia. I will either update them or replace them with a new MBT, after all their enemy MBT is an updated M-41 Bulldog from memory.

Now what about towed artillery?

After reading more I will use their OTL solution of the Mi-17 in a gunship role. For short lift the Caribou sounds like a solid aircraft for the region, particularly after the sterling work performed by the RAAF in Vietnam.

Conscription could be a reasonable way of building a country as well.

Now the difficult part of choosing doctrine and influences etc.

 

[Pangur]

The T-55's crossed my mind however how well would they do against the Thai M-60`s and to a lesser degree the M-48's

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Probably not too well realisticallly, so to counteract the greater armour threat I have to think about having more effective ATGM at the platoon or company level. Plus that may spur on the introduction of gunships my thoughts were the Ka - 50...

What do you think about engaging a PMC for military training?

 

[Pangur]

PMC's? Don't see why not. To my mind they would sell their grandmothers for a dollar. Getting ATGW's is going to be a bit harder.

 

[Kome]

Yeah I am leaning towards the Mig - 29 simply because of simplicity with maintaining the aircraft and the Soviet reputation for ease of repair.

A common misconception, due to the fact most Soviet costumers ended up being forced to keep them in service for lack of anything better. While Soviet fighters often came with a lower price tag, that came from cut corners and resulted in later problems with Soviet service life degrading quicker and having higher maintenance costs over time. The MiG-29 would have just as, if not higher, maintenance problems than an F-16.

The MiG-29's a fine plane, but should keep in mind what your dealing with.

And then there was the incident with the Algerian MiGs...

 

[La Rouge Beret]

A common misconception, due to the fact most Soviet costumers ended up being forced to keep them in service for lack of anything better. While Soviet fighters often came with a lower price tag, that came from cut corners and resulted in later problems with Soviet service life degrading quicker and having higher maintenance costs over time. The MiG-29 would have just as, if not higher, maintenance problems than an F-16.

The MiG-29's a fine plane, but should keep in mind what your dealing with.

And then there was the incident with the Algerian MiGs...

Happy for ideas or suggestions, what would you feel is appropriate?

 

[MonAngel]

How about weapon's be Chinese produced fighter and MBT.
For example Chinese reverse engineered Su-27 and T-80 can be provided to Cambodia Army with all necessary training and assistance.
IMO, Chinese just give it as loan (with the reason to test their weapon against US one)

 

[Incognito]

How about weapon's be Chinese produced fighter and MBT.
For example Chinese reverse engineered Su-27 and T-80 can be provided to Cambodia Army with all necessary training and assistance.
IMO, Chinese just give it as loan (with the reason to test their weapon against US one)

Chinese never revers-engeneered Russian T-80 as far as i know.

Though I have not read much on the subject, Cambodia and China don't have much of a partnership ever since Vietnam came in and kicked out the Chinese-backed Khmer Rouge. If Cambodia decides to renew relations with China, Vietnam may become more hostile towards it which Phnom Penh may not want.

 

[Pangur]

How about weapon's be Chinese produced fighter and MBT.
For example Chinese reverse engineered Su-27 and T-80 can be provided to Cambodia Army with all necessary training and assistance.
IMO, Chinese just give it as loan (with the reason to test their weapon against US one)

How would that work in terms of politics? Assuming that the past prior to 2006 is the same I would have expected the Cambodians to be a bit dark on the PRC what with their support for Pol Pot. The Vietnamese seem a good source and just maybe Taiwan. That would open the door to the Taiwanese versions of M-48`s

 

[Kome]

Happy for ideas or suggestions, what would you feel is appropriate?

Hmmm, well thinking about doctrine, your never going to be able to match the Thai air force in pure numbers. However ideally they wont have to. Pretending im a very optimistic Cambodian military planner. If things are limited to skirmishes (even the kind of large scale skirmishes that involve fighter jets and heavy artillery fire), Thailand wont throw its entire air force into the disputed territories, which gives a (very) slim possibility of achieving localized air superiority. Guess during an invasion the same principles still apply.

Cambodia has 20 MiG-21s currently. I would divide those into two squadrons and use them for airbase defense, since thats all they can do practically.

So then the issue of Cambodia's offensive capability. Probably the only way Cambodia could match Thailand is using hit and run tactics in the air. Ideally a single squadron of 12 (ideally more) modernish planes should work for that. The MiG-29 would actually work great for that. Its a better dogfighter than the F-16, but even more importantly the MiG-29 is faster than the F-16. Giving it the speed it needs to intercept a Thai formation, fire its missiles then run away.

The MiG-29 isnt a bad plane, but it has weaknesses along with strengths.

China's Vigorous Dragon (J-10) could also work. Similar strengths and weaknesses to the Russian fighter.

And the J-17 is a bit of an interesting entry. China's advertised it as the ideal fighter for third world nations. Its dirt cheap. But inferior technically to the F-16 (which figures, since its China's version of the F-16).

But its dirt cheap. In an ideal world, if the spare cash is avaliable having a limited number on hand to beef up the MiG-21 defense squadrons and provide support to the main squadron would be nice.

I wouldnt recommend the F-16 since its a pretty angry plane. One engined planes are temperamental enough, but the F-16 really seems to not be newbie friendly.

So yeah, two cents. Im probably being way to optimistic about the military budget my superiors are giving me, particularly since im only focusing on the air force.

How would that work in terms of politics? Assuming that the past prior to 2006 is the same I would have expected the Cambodians to be a bit dark on the PRC what with their support for Pol Pot. The Vietnamese seem a good source and just maybe Taiwan. That would open the door to the Taiwanese versions of M-48`s

China is a surprisingly capitalistic nation. They dont give away anything for free, but if you got money, they have something they'll be trying to offer you.

And the Vietnamese dont really have much to give. They dont really have an arms industry so anything they give to Cambodia, they'll be divesting their own army of.

Which considering Vietnam shares a border with China, they would be a bit reluctant about.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

That's a really interesting perspective as I had not considered the J - 17, would it be possible to equip it with Western avionics and what type of tactics would be used to attack a F- 16?

My only concern is you can go for a greater number of lower cost aircraft, but you end up skimping on training for the pilots. So my opinion would be perhaps a single squadron of let's say 18 + aircraft with pilots that are trained well.

They could always use an upgraded Mig - 21 but frankly I think it would be eaten alive by even a halfway competent F - 16 driver.

Surprisingly modern day Cambodia and the PRC are good friends, and the country is awash with Chinese investment dollars and also South Korean chaebols as well.

 

[Kome]

That's a really interesting perspective as I had not considered the J - 17, would it be possible to equip it with Western avionics and what type of tactics would be used to attack a F- 16?

My only concern is you can go for a greater number of lower cost aircraft, but you end up skimping on training for the pilots. So my opinion would be perhaps a single squadron of let's say 18 + aircraft with pilots that are trained well.

They could always use an upgraded Mig - 21 but frankly I think it would be eaten alive by even a halfway competent F - 16 driver.

Surprisingly modern day Cambodia and the PRC are good friends, and the country is awash with Chinese investment dollars and also South Korean chaebols as well.

Admittedly asking for 32 pilots is probably a pretty tall order. You could be right about it being better to retire the MiG-21s all together.

I think things could be doable with merely 18 planes. Divide it into four flights. One for interception operations, one to cover them, one for base defense, and one on standby on the ground that could alternate and reinforce as necessary. Or all four in defensive flights if its looking like they'll be overwhelmed.

Pretty sure there isnt any compatibility mod for installing Western avionics to a J-17. Would probably end up being a completely custom build (which means expensive). And America might block the sale out of spite or security concerns.

 

[Incognito]

How would that work in terms of politics? Assuming that the past prior to 2006 is the same I would have expected the Cambodians to be a bit dark on the PRC what with their support for Pol Pot. The Vietnamese seem a good source and just maybe Taiwan. That would open the door to the Taiwanese versions of M-48`s

Hm. Could Cambodia buy Taiwanese F-CK-1? Would it be too expensive?

 

[Kome]

Hm. Could Cambodia buy Taiwanese F-CK-1? Would it be too expensive?

I would worry about PRC retaliation if Cambodia did that.

It comes with issues as well. Seems like the Taiwanese production line for it is closed, which means higher prices and problems with spare parts. Also seems to use American components, which could be problematic if America decides to block those sales to not provoke China.

Seems pretty risky politically all told. I cant say i recommend it, general.

 

[MonAngel]

Chinese never revers-engeneered Russian T-80 as far as i know.

Though I have not read much on the subject, Cambodia and China don't have much of a partnership ever since Vietnam came in and kicked out the Chinese-backed Khmer Rouge. If Cambodia decides to renew relations with China, Vietnam may become more hostile towards it which Phnom Penh may not want.

Where did you got Cambodia is not good with China?
What I read from a lot of news and sources Cambodia is PRC's closest Ally in ASEAN. If you think I'm totally wrong can you give me some source to prove that I'm wrong...

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Hm. Could Cambodia buy Taiwanese F-CK-1? Would it be too expensive?

I think the question is could the primitive air fields / logistical support handle the Ching Kuo... after all it was made for a country that has high literacy rates etc. So for the continued future I am thinking either Chinese or former Soviet bloc. Another alternative would be to purchase the Canadian CF-5 when they are retired giving a reasoanble aircraft at an affordable price thoughts?

Now we have covered the air force fairly well, what about the Army before I get to my old stomping ground of the Navy.