AHC/How To: A Hispanophone Muslim (Spain)

This is basically a question about

1. Is it possible to create the conditions where people in Spain continue speaking a Romance language but mostly convert, resulting in a modern-day Spanish-speaking Muslim-majority country (the whole peninsula, or even a small part of it).

2. If it's deemed as too difficult, how does it fundamentally differ from Bosnia or Albania, where people kept their native language but changed religions?

I would really appreciate help on this. It's a question that's been bugging me for a while.
 
1. Really unlikely. While you had a dialectal Hispano-Romance speech (called Mozarab, even if it's somehow confusing, giving that it didn't exactly fit the cultural borders), it was continuously declining. Cultural arabisation is a really constant feature of the Arabo-Islamic world and only really important cultural centers (as Persia) or remote could avoid it.

2. Ottomans had a quite different take on this, maybe due in no small parts to their non-Arabity to begin with. At the contrary Arabity was a really important take medievally, and al-Andalus took this focus up to eleven compared to its contemporary counterparts.

Eventually, more al-Andalus is islamized and more it's going to be arabized (It's partially why Muslim entities in Spain looked more and more like what existed in Maghrib, up looking as an extension of Morrocco at the end).
 
1. Really unlikely. While you had a dialectal Hispano-Romance speech (called Mozarab, even if it's somehow confusing, giving that it didn't exactly fit the cultural borders), it was continuously declining. Cultural arabisation is a really constant feature of the Arabo-Islamic world and only really important cultural centers (as Persia) or remote could avoid it.

2. Ottomans had a quite different take on this, maybe due in no small parts to their non-Arabity to begin with. At the contrary Arabity was a really important take medievally, and al-Andalus took this focus up to eleven compared to its contemporary counterparts.

Eventually, more al-Andalus is islamized and more it's going to be arabized (It's partially why Muslim entities in Spain looked more and more like what existed in Maghrib, up looking as an extension of Morrocco at the end).

Yeah, that's my understanding too, but I'm still hopeful in terms of finding a way to the end result regardless. (And I was really hoping to get you interested in this thread too, success!)

What if the Arab expansion was halted earlier, perhaps in Africa, and Islam in Spain was borne by Berbers with a Berber but Muslim identity?

I guess then the question is, how to create an Ottoman analogue early in Islamic history, preferably in Africa/Spain?
 
What if the Arab expansion was halted earlier, perhaps in Africa, and Islam in Spain was borne by Berbers with a Berber but Muslim identity?
Spain was more or less the logical outcome of the conquest of Maghrib : the same wali that ended the conquest modern Morroco did oversaw the conquest of Spain.

Giving the distinct lack of unity of Berber at this point, I doubt you'd have more than raids as they existed since at least the IVth century : it's telling that even the Berber Caliphate of the Great Berber Revolt quickly desintegrated, so I don't think that you'd have room for a Berber conquest of Spain as in an unified command and resulting realm.

What might be possible would be Berber taking control of al-Andalus during the Great Berber Revolt, but there again you'd have some issues as desunion.

Let's imagine that the revolt succeeded in Hispania (IOTL they, surprise, divided up and were separatly defeated) they'd be facing a much probable separation (think taifa, but much more chaotically so) all the Arab nobility would refuse it for the sake of their interests (it was why Abd al Rahman was accepted eventually IOTL, as champion of Arabity).

Mentioning quickly the capacity of northern Christian principalties to take advantage of this (IOTL, it allowed them to secure the northern highlands and to create a buffer zone on Duero basin as Berber garrisons revolted), you'd understand that it may simply end as either Arabs taking back the lead thanks to reinforcements, or a general dismembrement of early Muslim Spain that would most likely benefit Christians (remembering furthermore that Christian principalties within al-Andalus province was still very much a reality)

So, it's doable (and even plausible), but would be short-lived and would radically weaken Al-Andalus or even Spain as a whole.

I guess then the question is, how to create an Ottoman analogue early in Islamic history, preferably in Africa/Spain?
I think the main obstacle was that Ottoman empire was built on already established imperial structures, namely Byzantine and Mameluke. You really didn't have these in North-Western Africa, and they slowly appeared with time over what was essentially a network of tribes and tribal confederacies (especially isolationist in Maghrib proper).

Even in the classical Arabo-Islamic world, North African entities were plagued by takeover from hinterland tribes and confederacies (Almoravids and Almohads, for exemple, aren't anything else)

Best way to have an Ottoman analogue would be to keep Merinid afloat and able to keep Grenada in sort of transcontinental Morroco. It would be hard, but apart from that... And, as it's definitely not what you asked for, I think I'm at loss for ideas.

What about voluntary conversion of the Visigoths?
Short answer : no.
Long answer : that's really unthinkable from a kingship that is, even more than what existed in Western Europe, defined itself religiously.
Additional answer : giving that Islamization at this point means conquest, it's a bit irrelevant, I'm afraid.
 
@LSCatilina: Alright, thanks for the explanation. I guess it makes sense - there was never a Berber imperial statehood prior to the Arab conquest anyway. And while the Slavs and the Africans formed their own principalities in Andalus, they quickly Arabised too.

It was always a long shot, I guess, but I'd be happy to hear if anyone else has any other ideas.
 
LSCatilina, what about the POD of Abd-Al-Aziz ibn Musa claiming independence from the Umayyad Caliphate? He would need to rely on the Christian Gothic ethnicity, and I assume grand majority of Muslims in this Al-Andalus would be Muladi, with only an Emir that is Arab, surely that Al-Andalus would be linguistically and culturally more Hispano-Romance than Semitic?
 
LSCatilina, what about the POD of Abd-Al-Aziz ibn Musa claiming independence from the Umayyad Caliphate? He would need to rely on the Christian Gothic ethnicity

Doesn't really matter : assuming Abd al-Aziz ibn Musa merely survive its tentative, he simply can't get rid of the Arabic elites that would not turn on him, even if he does have to rely more on Gothic nobility (whom obedience will be quite shaky).

Not only because in a state whom foundations are heavily built on Islam (as religious, but as well legal and political concepts) which means a huge stress on Arabisation*, but because the reduced numbers of the ruling Arabic elite means a stress on Arabity as an existential feature (a bit, if you allow me an equivalence, a Roman state implies a stress on Romanity, politically and culturally alike)

Arab is the language of the Qu'ran and is a large part of what legitimize their rule in first place at this point.

Abd al-Aziz needs to justify his rule in face of what would account for the bulk of his forces, as in Arabo-Berbers : the first, critically, would certainly never give up what makes their right to rule and fight nails and teeth someone that would go so deeply in what would be seen as quasi-apostasy.

*Partially because it was seen as a religion meant for Arabs originally then trully universal (conversion wasn't really encouraged at first), but also because it allowed the Arab ruling elite to have a first say on a religion that draws as well political and legal principles.

It doesn't covers it all, tough : Arab is so ingrained to Islam that even Berbers after 740 kept a lot of Arabized features


and I assume grand majority of Muslims in this Al-Andalus would be Muladi
It definitely was the case as well IOTL, since the early times of al-Andalus : Berber and Hispano-Roman/Gothic population formed the bulk of a population on which Arab ethnicity strictly speaking could account for some thousands at best in the late VIIIth century.

Nevertheless, the dominant language wasn't Berber or Hispano-Romance in origin.
 
I don't think it's impossible, I think you're analyzing the wrong period though.

If you can create de-reconquista TL around the 15/16th century, depending on which part of Spain you are, you can have a nation where Romance is the common language, whereas Arabic remains only a literal language. I'm not a specialist on the matter, but the surnames of most Moriscos indicate that they were Romance speakers once. Some important Moroccan families still have a "Spanish" surname, like Bargach (Vargas) or Torres.
 
If you can create de-reconquista TL around the 15/16th century
Who is gonna pulling it, tough?

Nasrids are definitely out, surviving only because Castille went trough a series of civil wars.

Merinids not only lack a true naval capacity to transcontinental invasion but were raided by Christians on a regular bases and declined after the mid-XIVth due to internal strife and financial crisis.
Admitting they get a hold on themselves, and manage to absorbate Nasrid Grenada, tough, they could prevent at least for a time the end of what remained of Muslim Spain, but giving that Grenada was at this point a cultural expansion of Maghreb, without real traces of a strong native hispano-romance population (or even a small one)...

Wattasids...Okay let's get serious, that's a no.

Zayyanids? Admitting they stop being the doormat of their neighbours, they still have to build a naval force worth of mention strong enough to prevent Aragonese raids and sattelisation of their own confederacy, let alone conquering Spain.

As for an inner Muslim or crypto-Muslim uprising, that's really out of scope.

"De-reconquista" PoD and TL generally struggle hard to be plausible (long story short, it is possible to pull a more limited reconquista a having a Morroco-like entity on both sides of the sea, but reversing the tendency is surprisingly hard if not implausible due to basic features)

I'm not a specialist on the matter, but the surnames of most Moriscos indicate that they were Romance speakers once.
True, but that's due to centuries of domination of Christian powers, on which using Arabic on a regular or critically pulbic base was at very best heavily discouraged.
It's telling that outside Moriscos that went to Ottoman Empire (a good third at least) or France, the ones that went to Morroco itself weren't that warmly welcomed : cultural differences (with other matters) played a certain role.
 

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Would it not be possible for one of the dynasties in charge to, in the efforts to centralize, decide to choose a vernacular tongue rather than Arabic as the language of administration? Al Andalus as a state always seemed quite internally fragile to me, relying too much on Mamluk soldiers and nobles with large landed estates rather than an internal powerbase headed by the crown. In attempting to fix this, the state may or may not choose a common language in efforts of making the task easier, with Arabic increasingly relegated to liturgical status. Or something.

Aside from that, I suppose the question might be at how to get the Romance speaking culture within the peninsula to have the cultural capital to resist Arabization, like in Persia and bits of Lebanon. I dunno how one would do such a thing; Latin and Roman nostalgia wouldn't have the same pull on the Arab sphere as it would in Italy or Francia.
 
Would it not be possible for one of the dynasties in charge to, in the efforts to centralize, decide to choose a vernacular tongue rather than Arabic as the language of administration?
It's really hard to pull : as mentioned above, not only medieval Arabo-Islamic power used Arab as a key cultural feature on a general basis, but al-Andalus ethnical/political features made it even more critical. One simply couldn't hope for any public role without being troughly arabized (and by that, I don't just mean converted, as muladi had to go trough a series of revolts before being admitted on higher levels).

Ottomans and Iranic empires (and in Persia, it took some times) managed to do otherwise, for two main reasons IMO : first, these empires were forged on non-Arabic (if arabized) peoples, then built on already present imperial foundations (Ottoman on Byzantine, for instance).
al-Andalus were, on the contrary, the creation of an Arab-dominated elite, which couldn't take on foundations of Gothic Spain (for various reasons, mostly being too different from the tribal/imperial features, and because they were too close of what main opponents of Arabo-Andalusians practiced).

The public and social pressure on Arabisation was really strong : Mozarabs went quickly unfamiliar with their own formal language, which is latin, at least by the Xth century.

Which lets Berber and Arab, and the first was a big no-no.

Al Andalus as a state always seemed quite internally fragile to me, relying too much on Mamluk soldiers and nobles with large landed estates rather than an internal powerbase headed by the crown.
While the really important reliance on mercenaries and foreign forces was a problem*, it eventually goes down to the political issues of the peninsula.

You had militias, but they usually played a really local role not unlike how Saqaliba could be as well tied to non-emiral/caliphal dynasties (in fact, it became more the opposite, these preferring using Berber or Christian troops eventually).

And I think part of the confusion is highlighted by your use of "headed by the crown"**.
That's too close of what one could think about feudal Europe, for that the discrepancy between both situations couldn't be highlighted.

Contrary to what existed even in the most divided feudal kingdoms, where in fine, the "feudal contract" gave huge legitimacy to the king (and why even dynasties that looked feeble at first managed to raise quickly), it didn't really that existed in al-Andalus.

Sure, the "ultimate" ruler was acknowledged as such (most of times) but his legitimacy didn't came from its relationship to his subordinates, that didn't that owed him their position except to what matters the "enlarged" house (domestics, ministers, slaves, armies, etc.).

His legitimacy, in al-Andalus that is, was to fight Christians on a regular basis (which meant either campaigning, or more generally raiding them), but not from having handled down territories and titles to other, smaller, dynasties.

When the ruler is strong, able to crush revolts or tentative of independence***, it's not big deal. When he's not, however, and critically if it encounter a general crisis (as the latter part of the Emiral period is a mix of political, dynastic, economical and military crisis), it can goes easily to hell : simply said, you didn't have that of an obvious and strong connection between local dynasties and polities and the emiral/caliphal's.

(And it becomes painfully obvious on how taifas and local elites related to Berber dynasties after the fall of Umayyads).

You might say that the ruling dynasty could have used their position to strengthen their role, and make a similar evolution to what happened later in Western Europe...But they did, it's not like they sit on their hands doing nothing.

But it was received...poorly.
I found, some time ago, a really interesting extract on this, allow me to repost it.

It was written by Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, in the early Taifa period.

If I make a difference between our times and previous times, it's that the exactions made during the time of the truce weren't generalized and institutionalized as nowadays, and that the conquest's tributes were made only on land property. They didn't differed much from the ones imposed by Umar.
But today, we have now : a capitation taxe on Muslims, called the qati, received each month; a tax on their goods on sheep, cows, oxen and bees consisting as a determined amount by cattle head and milking female; commercial taxes perceived on everything sold in market including the wine selling license accorded to some Muslims in some regions.

All of this, all that is covered by modern despots.

It's an abject outrage, a violation of Islamic laws, a shattering piece by piece of the commune society, the creation of a new religion when the only power in this regards is God's only! By God! If they learned that in the worship of the cross, there was something to make business, they would quickly convert to Christianity."

Roughly, the Emir/Caliph was supposed to get its fund from where it get its legitimacy : on Christians.****
It's interestingly not too dissimilar to the late medieval view that princes should take their funds during peace on their own lands, not trough taxation (which was viewed as exceptionnal and for matters of war).

But there, it collided significantly more with a more divisive basic political situation and with Islamic teachings*****.

*Which can't be called Mameluk, tough : while Saqaliba certainly played the role, they weren't a warrior class as you could see in Egypt or India. Furthermore you have a huge part of these forces being comprised of free Berber mercenaries, but as well (especially true in the latter times of the Caliphate) Christian mercenaries from the North.

** I can be wrong and reading too much into this, but I'm going to humor my instinct, wrong as it may be.

*** In no small parts thanks to a really developed bureaucracy. Having political problems that their neighbors didn't have doesn't mean they weren't able to pull something more advanced in the same time in the same field, of course.

**** You'd notice, there as well, the immediate identification of a state as Islamic, in order to illustrate the first and main point about language.

***** One can't stress enough on how Islam is providing not only a moral teaching, but as well legal, fiscal, societal and fiscal ones, more than other main Abrahamic religions and in this case Christianity.


In attempting to fix this, the state may or may not choose a common language in efforts of making the task easier, with Arabic increasingly relegated to liturgical status. Or something.
You can't just separate religious and political features on Arabo-Islamic world : both are extremely tightly unified, the Arab state being an Islamic state (and at the point al-Andalus was a thing, the reverse was essentially true as well).
 
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