AHC: How Far Can the Holocaust Be Extended With Victorious Germany?

What if Germany is able to achieve all of its military goals in Europe during World War II? It controls all of Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals. How far would it go to extend the Holocaust in a post-war world?
 
It can kill everyone it pleases in the territory it controls. Killing people isn't very hard. You can shoot them, starve them, gas them, work them to death.. A victorious Germany would result in the greatest bloodbath the world has ever seen. Jews and Gypsies don't stand a chance, there would be none left very swiftly. Of course, most deaths would be Slavs. I suspect the Czechs and Poles would all be dead or Germanized within a decade. Russians, Ukrainians and Belarussians would probably take a bit longer as it's further away from Germany and they'd be fighting a constant guerrilla war in those territories.
 
I read somewhere that the Nazis planned to starve 30 million people to death in Russia to free up land and resources for Germans.
 
Well given that the Holocaust is usually used to refer to the destruction of Jewish people and maybe Gypsies (I usually consider the campaigns against homosexuals to be an offshoot of the Nazi eugenics program, whilst the extermination of Slavs was essentially Generalplan Ost), I'm going to assume that's what the OP is referring to.

The Nazis could get pretty far. They could destroy European Jewry as a community, with the only survivors within the Nazi-dominated European space being crypto-Jews who don't admit to their origin for the sake of self-preservation. I'm going to assume that their victory includes an extension of proxy control over the Mediterranean basin, most likely with an Arab state of some form in the Levant, headed by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who I am of the opinion would cooperate in the expulsion of the Palestinian Jews to a grim fate in Europe.

This pretty much leaves the only remaining major Jewish populations being British and American Jews (despite the TOTAL VICTORY thing, I'm still assuming no Seelowe, with British acquiescence to a peace from bombing, where the Nazis would be in no position to demand the genocide of British Jews). The Kwarezmian/Bukharan Jews would likely be exposed to virulent antisemitism, potentially being treated as a scapegoat for the Soviet Union's expulsion from Europe (what a cruel irony).
 

WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
What if Germany is able to achieve all of its military goals in Europe during World War II? It controls all of Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals. How far would it go to extend the Holocaust in a post-war world?

From what I've gathered, the "Final Solution" was in connection with the so called "living space" mandate of the Nazi regime regarding the German race.

Trouble is that once they've finished with the Jews then Gypsies, it will be easier to expand the Death Camps to all the other nations of conquered Europe on the grounds of how simple and easy it was in regards to the Jews & Gypsies.

According to Wikipedia, no more than 500'000 personnel where involved in the day to day running of these Death Camps and they still managed to liquidate a minimum of up to 6 to 7 million victims in around 4 to 5 years.

With a victory in Europe and the manpower surplus from the peace, it wouldn't take long to liquidate a majority, if not the whole population of Europe.

Cheers filer
 

Deleted member 1487

From what I've gathered, the "Final Solution" was in connection with the so called "living space" mandate of the Nazi regime regarding the German race.

Trouble is that once they've finished with the Jews then Gypsies, it will be easier to expand the Death Camps to all the other nations of conquered Europe on the grounds of how simple and easy it was in regards to the Jews & Gypsies.

According to Wikipedia, no more than 500'000 personnel where involved in the day to day running of these Death Camps and they still managed to liquidate a minimum of up to 6 to 7 million victims in around 4 to 5 years.

With a victory in Europe and the manpower surplus from the peace, it wouldn't take long to liquidate a majority, if not the whole population of Europe.

Cheers filer

What's even more disturbing is that the camps did not kill the majority of people that died in the Holocaust, considering it killed more than just Jewish people. The killing began on a large scale during Barbarossa when over 1 million people were killed by a combination of gas vans and shooting; by 1942 the death camps were opened and within about 12 months nearly all the Jews of Poland were dead. Then the pace of killing slowed somewhat within the camps as they looked for new victims. 1942 saw the vast majority of murder of Jews with 2.7 million killed that year, 500k the next, 600k in 1944, and 100k in 1945. If they decided to carry out systematic murder via the camps they could have kept up a horrific pace. The thing is they planned to do most of the killing by starvation with the Hunger Plan, but historically during the war they were pretty bad at controlling the food supply well enough to kill people outside of their custody, pretty much leaving the starvation to the Soviet PoWs, of whom over 3.3 million died mostly in 1941-42.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan

Also wikipedia says the murder apparatus (planning through carrying it out) of the Holocaust including Einsatzgruppen and the death camps was between 100-500k people, with 500k being the high end of the estimate.

In practice though if they won I don't know if they'd continue the plan to its planned conclusion because of the loss of labor and the effect that would have on production of raw materials and food; eventually the falling outputs would probably force a reappraisal of policy, especially as they lacked sufficient manpower to truly hold down the occupied territories in the East, but without a doubt 10s of millions would be murdered by starvation before any reappraisal would be considered. Its beyond heinous thinking about what would have been done in a Nazi victory scenario and even with the full extent not being known outside of Nazi occupied Europe Britain and the US would have to know something because they did pick up info via ULTRA about it and were talking about it internally even if they didn't tell the public.

So what would the response of the anti-Fascist west be against the Nazis genocide in the East, even if the Nazis managed to be victorious?
I'm assuming the scenario is they manage to get Britain to quit in 1940 and then get lucky in 1941 and manage to kill Stalin causing the Soviet government to unwind, allowing them to end the war before the West can find a way to get directly involved. I'm assuming they'll support a rump USSR or Russia state that exists beyond Nazi control, which would try and provoke resistance to the Nazis via guerrillas. How much effect would that have had, especially if the Nazis have no problems using starvation, genocide, vast area depopulation, and chemical weapons against resistance?
 

abc123

Banned
IMO they would not kill that many more than they inteded in OTL. Jews and Gypsies would probably be allmost destroyed in area under their control ( maybe not in Italy, Sweden, Finland, Spain and Portugal trough ).

Big number of Poles, Russians, Belarussians and Ukraineans will be killed too- smaller number will be germanised.

Czechs and Slovenians will be either deported or germanised.
 

Deleted member 1487

IMO they would not kill that many more than they inteded in OTL. Jews and Gypsies would probably be allmost destroyed in area under their control ( maybe not in Italy, Sweden, Finland, Spain and Portugal trough ).

Big number of Poles, Russians, Belarussians and Ukraineans will be killed too- smaller number will be germanised.

Czechs and Slovenians will be either deported or germanised.

So how many die then? 50 million?
 
Depends on how long this victorious Germany can last. Give it enough time and it could end up with a death toll in the hundreds of millions.
 
Well, in terms of the campaigns against the Jews and Gypsies, all of those who cannot escape away from areas of Nazi control or somehow get new identities will be dead. The Nazis will make a big effort to pressure any of their allies (Hungary, Romania, Italy for example) to turn over the Jews to them for extermination - this may or may not happen. Finland will get much more pressure than OTL, and Mannerheim may not be able to resist. Neutrals like Sweden and Switzerland, as long as they remain unoccupied would most likely resist pressure to turn over Jewish citizens and legal residents, the fate of any refugees is problematic. Bottom line, again, anywhere Germany is in physical control Jews and Gypsies will be extinct.

In terms of Slavs, Generalplan Ost is pretty clear. In the areas Germany will annex, the Slavic population will be reduced in number (starvation and direct extermination) and the rest will be reduced to illiterate slaves. In practice, some young children who are adequately "aryan" can be taken and raised as Germans.

Homosexuals, and to a lesser extent lesbians, will be severely persecuted whether killed or not will depend. Also, the prgram of elimination of the unfit (severely handicapped individuals, mentalyl challenged, some "socially inferior) will continue - this (program T) was in fact the first of the Nazi extermination campaigns.

How many would die in this program? Tens upon tens of millions, over and above the deaths attendant to combat. I expect that eastern PoWs will be worked to death and starved rather than wasting effort to move them about.

FWIW the Arabs who welcome "liberation" by the Germans, and cooperate fully with them in eliminating the Jewish population of the Middle East, will find that their status will, in a relatively short time, become much worse than it was before they were "liberated".
 
from the SS and NSDAP documents who survived the War, give very grim view what the Nazi had in mind

Next Jews, Gypsies were also european moslems to exterminate
after those 15 million people were murder, was Poland on list 80% of population had to murder, the rest would serve as Slave race for Aryans.
simlear kill ratio for East Europe and west Russian
about 65 to 120 million people wanted the Nazi exterminate to make room for there Aryans race

and that was not the end of it
had SS Heydrich his way, after that masse murder, they would start kill european and germans people of jews ancestry to clean the Gen pool.

Also had Holocaust to be extended to Nazi occupied Africa and Palestine: first Jews, then moslems

they were insane, totally insane...
 

TinyTartar

Banned
It can kill everyone it pleases in the territory it controls. Killing people isn't very hard. You can shoot them, starve them, gas them, work them to death.. A victorious Germany would result in the greatest bloodbath the world has ever seen. Jews and Gypsies don't stand a chance, there would be none left very swiftly. Of course, most deaths would be Slavs. I suspect the Czechs and Poles would all be dead or Germanized within a decade. Russians, Ukrainians and Belarussians would probably take a bit longer as it's further away from Germany and they'd be fighting a constant guerrilla war in those territories.

I'd have to contend you on this point. Chinese wars and rebellions quite often exceeded the scale of the Holocaust, and likely would have still been higher than the end result for a Nazi dominated Europe, albeit not proportionally. Of course, I could be wrong on this, but the end of the Han Dynasty alone and the wars that followed caused around 36 million deaths, and that was in the time of the Roman Empire.

But as for your main point, yes, I think that Slavs would be wiped out, although I question how a guerilla war would work, as Soviet partisans were tightly dependent on and controlled by Moscow. A scenario where the Germans win means that likely, the core of the partisans support is dead and they themselves are on the verge of extinction. A guerilla war would likely not cause the Germans as much trouble as you'd think as, quite frankly, they have the gloves taken off and units trained specifically for that kind of warfare who would bear the brunt of the exterminating.

Germanization is an interesting topic. I think that there may be some division among Nazi leadership of who was worthy of it and who was not, and how it should be accomplished. I personally think that Hitler tended to view Germans as a people that were expanding on their own and did not need to assimilate inferior races, and the Nazi view on childbearing tends to support this (they actually encouraged young girls to bear illegitimate children, provided of course that they were properly German children and fit for service to the fatherland). He might make a concession on the Czechs, but likely not the Poles, and definitely not the Slavs. He also would want Aryan Scandinavians, in time, to be properly German in their way of life and attitudes.
 

takerma

Banned
Probably still less then what Mao managed to achieve but it would be grim.

Jews and Gypsies are screwed. Slavs are screwed but how much will depend on demographics of the German population. If germany can create a large and sustainable population growth then Slavs would get destroyed. More likely most of Poland, Ukraine etc would become some sort of a colony to feed Reich.
 
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