AHC: Henry VIII does not meet Jane Seymour - how does this affect the timeline?

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@desmirelle it's kind of my fault this tread spun out of control so fast, so if your irritated at anyone take it out on me.
Actually, the fault would be mine. Just considering the actual POD we were given for this exercise, the deaths of Henry or Jane were the only two scenarios I could think of which would prevent their marriage. Jane's death changes little in the immediate future. Henry's death causes a power vaccum in Europe with a massive prize on the table and an opportunity for Charles to truly destroy his hated rival, or for Francis to gain new weapons to, well, destroy his hated rival.

Charles doesn't trust Francis at all. This is a man who has already blatantly broken one signed agreement and who in 1536 was already supporting Protestants in the HRE and in the process of signing an unprecedented alliance with Charles' OTHER hated rival in Suleiman the Magnificent. With Henry's sudden death, Charles has a small window in which he could finally, finally destroy Francis once and for all if he could manage to get a Habsburg-friendly marriage agreed to with Mary, who is likely going to be crowned Queen of England at 20 years old and with at the time will look like she could produce heirs, spares, and daughters. He will settle on a Scottish/English marriage so long as he likely has a written agreement, signed, sanctified, whatever, that England-Scotland will drop any and all ties to France and at the least remain neutral, or if he can get James to switch Scotland's own allegiance. He needs that guarantee, because without it, Francis still has that backdoor into the Scottish monarchy, that annoying little Auld Alliance, based on centuries of history against a mutual enemy, to try and do whatever he can to re-negotiate that alliance and simply point it against Charles. This is Francis we're talking about, this is a man who has stopped at nothing to try and defeat Charles. Charles probably views this man as a true enemy of Christendom, who has betrayed his faith TWICE, and he's just going to trust that one of France's oldest allies, with old historical ties, won't decide to continue that friendship if Francis throws all the gold in France at him? Charles will take any chance to crush Francis, if he can't get that, then he needs actual written assurance that James won't ever come to Francis' aid.
 
I have missed your patronising tone so much. I am quite aware that James is the son of a english princess and next in line, I am also aware that he is the ruler of a foreign country who has had a habit of declaring war with england, so it's unlikely that the english people, english nobles and english parliament will allow him the total power. And Mary is not Elizabeth of York, she's will be a more hands on ruler.

But given this is likely to end up like the Duarte II thread, I'm not going down that rabbit hole again. So I'll bow out of this thread.
Try at least to understand was I am trying to explain and the mentality of the age about we are talking, because you usually ignore rules and facts who do not comply with your ideas disrespecting history...
Mary at 20 years old is pretty unlikely to be able to force her will upon the English nobles...

Before Anne Boleyn, cousin James was an option. As soon as Anne - "I won't marry you unless you get rid of your wife" (not said but implied after he kept pressuring her) - showed up, James was NOT an option (neither Anne nor Henry would allow it, it would smack too much of the marriage to Katherine of Aragon being legal).
Anne Boleyn had NEVER wanted marry Henry, she was simply trying to reject his undesiderated advances... When Henry offered her marriage she had no other choice than accept as she understood who would never be free fron Henry and was unable to say no to the King.
 
If we're gonna derail this bastard TL, Henry dies the day after 'the concubine's' execution, Mary becomes Queen and Charles offers up the Roman Catholic Luis, Duke of Beja - who she'll married.
Nice, that actually is a very good compromise for all parties. Not a Habsburg, not potentially friendly to France, and an actual royal infante to boot.

Now, if Charles wanted to be a truly magnificent bastard, he would still try and propose a Habsburg wedding, but if he can't get it, he throws this guy out there and still gets something that benefits him.
 
@isabella - I am more than well aware of H8's stalking. I'm referring to his interpretation of her statements, not what she meant. You can see that in other of my posts in other threads.

Also, Mary wouldn't have married James after Anne unless the Pope ordered her to and Charles said "yeah, okay". Because Mary, like most women of her time would submit to her husband. Which would put England UNDER Scotland.

@Ivan Lupo, you're not responsible either. Saltburn861 started it the same way all the hit and run posters do, by either going "as the title says" or not even mentioning the title in the body of his first post, then doesn't reply until I point out he's lacking in historic knowledge and he hasn't bothered to post again on HIS OWN THREAD. Then he comes up with a lame excuse (immediately after I post my points, notice that?) and still doesn't tell his scenario. His fault, period.
 
One thing we have overlooked by a James and Mary union is that the purpose of the Auld Alliance were to protect Scotland from England. If James and Mary weds then the threat is gone. Scotland has no reason to make friendly overturns to France with their ruler married to the queen of England. A England-Scotland is not gonna attack Flanders, they have no reason to. At worst they will be neutral in regards to the France-Hapsburg conflict.

James and Mary, co-rulers of Scotland and England are not gonna become nightmares for Charles V.

Indeed, there's no real strategic reason for England-Scotland to go to war with the Hapsburgs (aside from anything else, trade with the Low Countries was a big part of the English economy), and even if James wants to support France for historic and sentimental reasons, Mary and the English would have historic and sentimental reasons for doing the opposite.

And frankly, even if Charles has his reservations, what's he going to do if Mary and James do decide to get married? If he raises a stink, he'd surely make it more likely that Britain would join the French. Most likely he'd offer one of his own relatives for Mary and/or James, and if that doesn't work, try to butter up the new couple to make sure they stay on-side.
 
Mary ain't gonna marry James; Scotland=France=Anne Boleyn in her mind.
I do not think she will have that association, the second part sure but not the first...

Plus few rules well explicit from the English council about what he can do and what he can not and James will not be a trouble as King of England, because England is bigger than Scotland so if James is more Scottish than English his son, the Prince of Wales and Duke of Rothesay will be an Englishman...
(Think to Charles V and Philip II in Spain)
 
@desmirelle That marriage you proposed with the Duke of Beja basically makes Charles the undisputed leader of one familial faction on his father's side and the shadow leader of another familial faction through his mother's side. I hope TTL Charles is laughing maniacally in Flanders somewhere once those vows are exchanged. He might have totally screwed Francis over this way and he might not even realize it. Bravo.
 
@desmirelle That marriage you proposed with the Duke of Beja basically makes Charles the undisputed leader of one familial faction on his father's side and the shadow leader of another familial faction through his mother's side. I hope TTL Charles is laughing maniacally in Flanders somewhere once those vows are exchanged. He might have totally screwed Francis over this way and he might not even realize it. Bravo.

And then I realize that this dude is also Mary's first cousin .

Still, in this case, I think Charles has more stroke than anyone else around to arrange for the Pope not to rule against it, but could stroke the Pope to block a potential first cousin marriage to James V.

High comedy, this.
 
I apologise about this thread. As someone said on Help and Rules, it can always be rebooted.

I'll do my research next time and not rush a thread like this.
 
Since when is Charles in charge of England or Mary? He's not king of England or her father.

I was wondering the same thing. Hell, after Anne Boleyn was executed, he played a part in inducing Mary to submit to Henry. Since Chapuys told her that the emperor wouldn't risk alienating Henry for Mary's sake
 
I was wondering the same thing. Hell, after Anne Boleyn was executed, he played a part in inducing Mary to submit to Henry. Since Chapuys told her that the emperor wouldn't risk alienating Henry for Mary's sake
Except in this scenario, Henry is dead, croaked, nixed. He is an ex-Tudor, which any of these other kings could use to disregard any and all agreements and angle to swing things their way. Do you really believe Charles, with this sudden power vacuum, wouldn't be trying to bring England and it's (presumably) young and nubile queen, who also happens to be his first cousin, into the Habsburg fold? He would have to be delicate about it, subtle, but an opportunity just landed within grasp to close the trap on Francis and crush him once and for all. Henry, being not just only merely dead, but really most sincerely dead, and any agreement his regime had made during his lifetime, is irrelevant. Mary's hand in marriage is about the single greatest prize in all Europe and Charles and Francis will be doing all they can that her marriage benefits them and damages their (hated) rival.
 
To be honest, I didn't quite think about outcomes; other than maybe a crisis or succession crisis.
Again, you gave us about a 3 week window in May of 1536 to work off of, so the deaths of Jane or Henry were the two most realistic I could think of, and I have been railing on what happens in light of Henry's sudden death after the execution and before the marriage to Jane. I suppose another possible POD in that timeframe could have Henry pardon and take her back, which would be a bad look for Henry, to say the least.

Or else, I dunno, alien space bats abduct Jane at the altar, and Henry, Francis, Charles, and Suleiman join forces to see if they're bad enough dudes to save her.
 
Again, you gave us about a 3 week window in May of 1536 to work off of, so the deaths of Jane or Henry were the two most realistic I could think of, and I have been railing on what happens in light of Henry's sudden death after the execution and before the marriage to Jane. I suppose another possible POD in that timeframe could have Henry pardon and take her back, which would be a bad look for Henry, to say the least.

Or else, I dunno, alien space bats abduct Jane at the altar, and Henry, Francis, Charles, and Suleiman join forces to see if they're bad enough dudes to save her.

Fair enough. I didn't consider ASB in this. I should have posted this in Test Forums and worked on it there.
 
Except in this scenario, Henry is dead, croaked, nixed. He is an ex-Tudor, which any of these other kings could use to disregard any and all agreements and angle to swing things their way. Do you really believe Charles, with this sudden power vacuum, wouldn't be trying to bring England and it's (presumably) young and nubile queen, who also happens to be his first cousin, into the Habsburg fold? He would have to be delicate about it, subtle, but an opportunity just landed within grasp to close the trap on Francis and crush him once and for all. Henry, being not just only merely dead, but really most sincerely dead, and any agreement his regime had made during his lifetime, is irrelevant. Mary's hand in marriage is about the single greatest prize in all Europe and Charles and Francis will be doing all they can that her marriage benefits them and damages their (hated) rival.
Francis will not get it as Mary has no love for France, Charles has no candidate of the right age to offer, unless he push for the Duke of Beja (but an Anglo-Scottish match is not really worse than an Anglo-Portuguese one from his prospective as he want also attract James V of Scotland to his side).
And a revival of the Auld Alliance after James and Mary’s wedding is pretty improbable as: Mary is half-Spanish and hate France, Francis offended James denying him the hand of his daughter Madeleine (after he had promised her to James) and the Auld Alliance was against England (so now has lost any reason to exist) and James-Mary have little to gain from an alliance against Spain and Portugal...
 

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1. @saltburn861: take a damn history course. By May 1536, Jane was already met, already courted and covertly in line to be the next Mrs. H8. Your POD is untenable unless.... well, what do you think (see next point.)

2. @saltburn861: where the FUCK are you? You start the thread, but have NO opinions and post NOTHING beyond the initial post? I call bullshit. In post-1900, the thread might have been locked already.

3. If you tell us what you think, then I can respond. Until then, bye.​
WAY over the line here.

Do not repeat.
 
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