AHC: Henry VIII does not meet Jane Seymour - how does this affect the timeline?

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Mary is smart enough to know that she is the undisputed heirress to England and to marry acording to her station. She's the sole child of Catherine of Aragon for pete's sake. And James is the best suitor of the bunch. Charles would be popping the champagne (metaphorically, as it had not been invented) over a scottish marriage.
 
Well, the Scots were the least foreign of the alternatives, plus it unites the countries. I imagine that parliament would impose extremly strict rules for the union, like let Mary have the majority of power in england and keep the english appointed posts to englishmen. But it could work. Scotland is likely to do the same concerning the english.
James would rule England in Mary’s name with strong limitations to appointments of not Englishmen and on the English support to Scottish interests plus the obligation to stay at least six months for year in England at least for Queen Mary and their children...

@Ivan Lupo, @Kellan Sullivan: a wedding between James V and Mary in the end is something perfectly acceptable to both Charles and Francis... Sure Francis can offer his eldest son for Mary (but England will not like it and Spain much less) but he is not so willing to marry his daughter to James (and do not want him marrying another Habsburg-related princess) and Charles can offer his cousin and brother-in-law Luis of Portugal (but still is not a perfect match for him and James of Scotland is almost as good).

Is not like Europe had so many princes of the right age and rank for being a match worth of Queen Mary of England: Maximilian and Ferdinand of Austria and Philip of Spain are too young, the Dauphin Francis is well French, so James V of Scotland and Louis of Portugal are the best choices available for Mary and their are both her first cousins so for me (and likely Mary) the Scottish King is clearly the best
 
Well, the Scots were the least foreign of the alternatives, plus it unites the countries. I imagine that parliament would impose extremly strict rules for the union, like let Mary have the majority of power in england and keep the english appointed posts to englishmen. But it could work. Scotland is likely to do the same concerning the english.

I'm not sure strict rules would be necessary, at least for the English -- England is pretty much bound to end up the senior partner in an Anglo-Scottish union, so there wouldn't be fears (as there were regarding Mary's OTL Spanish match) that England would end up being dominated by foreigners.

The Scots, on the other hand, might well insist on such conditions, precisely because they would be liable to English domination.
 
Mary is smart enough to know that she is the undisputed heirress to England and to marry acording to her station. She's the sole child of Catherine of Aragon for pete's sake. And James is the best suitor of the bunch. Charles would be popping the champagne (metaphorically, as it had not been invented) over a scottish marriage.
So long as Charles has his guarantee that the Scots drop their alliance with France, then this is a scenario he could live with. If he doesn't have that guarantee, then Charles is still trying to swing a groom of his preference.
 
I think Mary and James would be co-rulers, like Ferdinand and Isabella, if Henry dies in 1536 then Mary is in a better mental condition, so she will most likely guard her power like her grandmother. And english nobles and parliament will likely strengthen her.
 
So long as Charles has his guarantee that the Scots drop their alliance with France, then this is a scenario he could live with. If he doesn't have that guarantee, then Charles is still trying to swing a groom of his preference.
And I keep harping on this because in 1536, Charles has a very clear advantage over Francis. He almost has him right where he wants him, but if the very oldest continuous allies of the French, the Scots, maintain that alliance while gaining access to England's wealth and resources, it allows Francis to wiggle free and really even the playing field with Charles. All while now being able to threaten Habsburg possessions in the valuable Low Countries from the south and from across the North Sea. Charles needs that assurance that Scotland drops their alliance with France before he co-signs a marriage between James and Mary. Because one thing is absolutely certain, Francis will do all he can to keep renewing that Auld Alliance and just point it towards the Habsburgs.
 
I think Mary and James would be co-rulers, like Ferdinand and Isabella, if Henry dies in 1536 then Mary is in a better mental condition, so she will most likely guard her power like her grandmother. And english nobles and parliament will likely strengthen her.
English nobles and Parliament will put some limits to James’ power but still give him the rule of the Kingdom and will likely crown him as full co-regent of Mary (as he is the next in line after her).

@Ivan Lupo: Charles had very little to fear about a continuing Auld Alliance after James became King of England as try to guess against what Kingdom was directed the Auld Alliance? England
 
And I keep harping on this because in 1536, Charles has a very clear advantage over Francis. He almost has him right where he wants him, but if the very oldest continuous allies of the French, the Scots, maintain that alliance while gaining access to England's wealth and resources, it allows Francis to wiggle free and really even the playing field with Charles. All while now being able to threaten Habsburg possessions in the valuable Low Countries from the south and from across the North Sea. Charles needs that assurance that Scotland drops their alliance with France before he co-signs a marriage between James and Mary. Because one thing is absolutely certain, Francis will do all he can to keep renewing that Auld Alliance and just point it towards the Habsburgs.


Since when is Charles in charge of England or Mary? He's not king of England or her father.


I do think that parliament and the nobles would give Mary the rule of england, as she is 1: English and 2:The rightful heirress. James is gonna weld power, but the final say in england is gonna belong to Mary. Nobody want a scot to just boss them around without Mary having a say in the matter.
 
English nobles and Parliament will put some limits to James’ power but still give him the rule of the Kingdom and will likely crown him as full co-regent of Mary (as he is the next in line after her).

@Ivan Lupo: Charles had very little to fear about a continuing Auld Alliance after James became King of England as try to guess against what Kingdom was directed the Auld Alliance? England
And what comfort what that give Charles? Scotland is in a much stronger position now and could now start making it's own waves on the continent, on top of having a very old, traditional friendship with France. Who is to say that Francis doesn't just drop all kinds of gold into James' lap, now in nominal control of the waters in and around the British Islands, and simply negotiate that Auld Alliance to point towards the Habsburgs? Or, even if that alliance against the Habsburgs isn't formalized, Francis has free and clear access into the North Sea to raid the Low Countries and seriously damage Charles' profits, all while having access to friendly ports in England that his French pirates could escape to. Flanders especially is one of the biggest money spinners for Habsburgs, they literally cannot afford any scenario where Flanders faces any more threat than it already does. And again, it's why I keep saying that Charles would only be fine with a marriage between James and Mary so long as any and all alliances, agreements, treaties, whatever have you, that Scotland has with France, are immediately severed and that Anglo-Scottish neutrality is at least maintained.
 
Warning
1. @saltburn861: take a damn history course. By May 1536, Jane was already met, already courted and covertly in line to be the next Mrs. H8. Your POD is untenable unless.... well, what do you think (see next point.)

2. @saltburn861: where the FUCK are you? You start the thread, but have NO opinions and post NOTHING beyond the initial post? I call bullshit. In post-1900, the thread might have been locked already.

3. If you tell us what you think, then I can respond. Until then, bye.​
 
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One thing we have overlooked by a James and Mary union is that the purpose of the Auld Alliance were to protect Scotland from England. If James and Mary weds then the threat is gone. Scotland has no reason to make friendly overturns to France with their ruler married to the queen of England. A England-Scotland is not gonna attack Flanders, they have no reason to. At worst they will be neutral in regards to the France-Hapsburg conflict.

James and Mary, co-rulers of Scotland and England are not gonna become nightmares for Charles V.
 
1. @saltburn861: take a damn history course. By May 1536, Jane was already met, already courted and covertly in line to be the next Mrs. H8. Your POD is untenable unless.... well, what do you think (see next point.

2. @saltburn861: where the FUCK are you? You start the thread, but have NO opinions and post NOTHING beyond the initial post? I call bullshit. In post-1900, the thread might have been locked already.

3. If you tell us what you think, then I can respond. Until then, bye.​

To be fair, I had limited wi-fi when posting - and relied on a Wikipedia article. Then got distracted by Shared Worlds forum, sorry.
 
Since when is Charles in charge of England or Mary? He's not king of England or her father.


I do think that parliament and the nobles would give Mary the rule of england, as she is 1: English and 2:The rightful heirress. James is gonna weld power, but the final say in england is gonna belong to Mary. Nobody want a scot to just boss them around without Mary having a say in the matter.
You know who James, while Scottish is the son of an English princess and (with Elizabeth removed from the line of succession as illegitimate) the next-in-line after Mary? Plus he is a man and no woman was ever able to hold England until now and the only person who had hopes on Mary as ruler on England is her already dead mother so she most likely will follow a path very similar to her paternal grandmother (withnthe difference who Mary will be crowned as co-regnant of James).
 
No, no, no, no, this is a habit with some posters. They come up with an idea, give no opinion of their own and then NEVER get back on it - the TL, they just expect nice people like you, Kellen and Ivan to bat for them.

Little Sister, you can't take the blame on this one. saltburn861 started it, now he needs to step up to the plate and tell us what he thinks. I hate when the wankers pull this, so I called it as I see it. His fault. Completely.
 
If we're gonna derail this bastard TL, Henry dies the day after 'the concubine's' execution, Mary becomes Queen and Charles offers up the Roman Catholic Luis, Duke of Beja - who she'll married.
 
Before Anne Boleyn, cousin James was an option. As soon as Anne - "I won't marry you unless you get rid of your wife" (not said but implied after he kept pressuring her) - showed up, James was NOT an option (neither Anne nor Henry would allow it, it would smack too much of the marriage to Katherine of Aragon being legal).
 
You know who James, while Scottish is the son of an English princess and (with Elizabeth removed from the line of succession as illegitimate) the next-in-line after Mary? Plus he is a man and no woman was ever able to hold England until now and the only person who had hopes on Mary as ruler on England is her already dead mother so she most likely will follow a path very similar to her paternal grandmother (withnthe difference who Mary will be crowned as co-regnant of James).

I have missed your patronising tone so much. I am quite aware that James is the son of a english princess and next in line, I am also aware that he is the ruler of a foreign country who has had a habit of declaring war with england, so it's unlikely that the english people, english nobles and english parliament will allow him the total power. And Mary is not Elizabeth of York, she's will be a more hands on ruler.

But given this is likely to end up like the Duarte II thread, I'm not going down that rabbit hole again. So I'll bow out of this thread.
 
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