AHC: Henry VIII does not meet Jane Seymour - how does this affect the timeline?

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This is my first go at a before 1900 AHC so my apologies if this is doesn't make sense.

The mnemomic to remember Henry VIII's six wives is:

Divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived


In this AHC, the challenge is:

  • The POD is May 1536, and unlike in OTL, he does not marry Jane Seymour. In OTL she gives birth to Edward VI.
Here, the challenge is to come up with the events for the period May 1536 - January 1547 (Henry VIII's death) and work out how things could be very different in this ATL.

How would the monarchy etc. change and British history?

I will be interested to see what you can come up with.
 
I suppose this is all contingent on what other suitable marriage candidates there are that might catch Henry's eye...or anyone that could bring a massive dowry. At any rate, considering Henry married Jane right after Anne Boleyn's execution, it seems pretty clear he was pretty dead set on marrying her way before May of 1536, and Jane couldn't exactly just get cold feet. Only thing I can think of is that Jane dies the same day via some sort of accident and Henry is forced to find someone else through the more standard channels, if we're sticking to the proposed POD.
 
Jane being dead or already married before she meets Henry would solve a lot of problems.
Except the OP is asking for a POD of May 1536, and one where he specifically doesn't marry Jane. Considering that there was real interest in Jane up to 3 months before Anne's execution, it is pretty Henry was already running game toward Jane well before May of 1536.

If Anne could possibly plead her innocence successfully and avoid execution at the last minute, that's one solution.

Or else, and BlueFlowwer probably will like this one, Henry keels over unexpectedly in May, leaving Anne alive, Jane going about her business, and England laughably in flames due to a massive succession crisis. Perhaps we find ourselves talking about the new English inheritance of the Habsburgs when Mary inevitably comes to power with the might of Charles V backing her.
 
I suppose this is all contingent on what other suitable marriage candidates there are that might catch Henry's eye...or anyone that could bring a massive dowry. At any rate, considering Henry married Jane right after Anne Boleyn's execution, it seems pretty clear he was pretty dead set on marrying her way before May of 1536, and Jane couldn't exactly just get cold feet. Only thing I can think of is that Jane dies the same day via some sort of accident and Henry is forced to find someone else through the more standard channels, if we're sticking to the proposed POD.

What if the Boleyns were to still manage to send Jane from court? Until January 1536, Anne is still mother of the king's as yet unborn heir. Jane's attentions from Henry is supposedly what provoked Anne's miscarriage (at least, this is how it's usually dramatized). Anne was also apparently still riding high by Easter. If she (or a Boleyn underling) were to spread the rumour that Sir John Seymour's affair with his daughter-in-law involved more than just Katherine Filiol or something (perhaps incest is best, put dad to the test?) - Jane was formerly engaged to Bill Dormer (so the existence of a pre-contract might be equally enough to put Henry off, since he'd be marrying another man's wife).
 
Perhaps we find ourselves talking about the new English inheritance of the Habsburgs when Mary inevitably comes to power with the might of Charles V backing her.

Sure, happily married Karl is going to propose either a bigamous marriage to Mary for him (or his erstwhile happily married brother) or that Mary becomes a kiddy-fiddler and weds the 9yo Felipe II. :)

Aviz or Stewart England is more likely - depending on which way Mary leans (to the Habsburgs or France). @desmirelle actually had a TL going on Henry dying in 1536, Mary marrying James V
 
Sure, happily married Karl is going to propose either a bigamous marriage to Mary for him (or his erstwhile happily married brother) or that Mary becomes a kiddy-fiddler and weds the 9yo Felipe II. :)

Aviz or Stewart England is more likely - depending on which way Mary leans (to the Habsburgs or France). @desmirelle actually had a TL going on Henry dying in 1536, Mary marrying James V

I was thinking more that Charles has Mary rule England as his puppet while a bunch of Habsburgs supporters are stuffed into her court while some other distant Habsburg princelet gets to marry Mary...
 
I was thinking more that Charles has Mary rule England as his puppet while a bunch of Habsburgs supporters are stuffed into her court while some other distant Habsburg princelet gets to marry Mary...
Habsburg princes are too young for Mary. James V of Scotland and Luis of Portugal, Duke of Beja are the only realistic candidates for Mary (unless she accept to marry lower to one of the Poles) and either of them will rule England in name of Mary as her King Consort
Plus an intervent too strong of Charles V in favour of Mary would likely backfire in more support for either Fitzroy or Elizabeth...
 
Habsburg princes are too young for Mary. James V of Scotland and Luis of Portugal, Duke of Beja are the only realistic candidates for Mary (unless she accept to marry lower to one of the Poles) and either of them will rule England in name of Mary as her King Consort
Plus an intervent too strong of Charles V in favour of Mary would likely backfire in more support for either Fitzroy or Elizabeth...
All the same, as Mary is his cousin, Charles figures to play a major role in any sort of succession dispute and would do what he could to tilt the scales in her favor.
 
Charles figures to play a major role in any sort of succession dispute and would do what he could to tilt the scales in her favor.

@isabella's right. Karl can cause a backlash by being too open to Mary. Not to mention, Karl has just (March/April 1536 IIRC) signed an agreement/treaty with Henry wherein he not only recognizes Anne Boleyn as queen with Elizabeth (and any sons by Anne as lawful successor) but wherein Elizabeth is also tentatively betrothed to the future Felipe II. (IMO) The minute Katherine died Karl V fell over his feet to mend fences with Henry. The incident at the Greenwich Chapel Royal over Easter 1536 - wherein Chapuys was obliged to yield to "the concubine" - would not have happened had Karl not wanted it to. Henry apparently stage managed the meeting to see how serious Karl was. Chapuys himself might've had a personal dislike for Anne, but the fact that he did yield shows that the emperor was willing to let bygones be bygones (for now), since Chapuys was probably under orders to debase himself such.
 
James V, first cousin to Mary by way of being the son of Margaret Tudor? Now, I know in OTL that Mary and Philip were fairly closely related too, I think being first cousins once removed, but if Charles V has the Pope's ear, wouldn't this marriage be prevented by rule of consanguinity, hypocrisy, and shenanigans?

At any rate, this is a good scenario for Francis I, with a union of Scotland and England keeping the Habsburgs out of the British Islands and possibly using the Auld Alliance between France and Scotland to bring England to their side. Which sounds like anathema to a good chunk of the English nobility.

However, the best case scenario for Francis would be to try and get his own son Francis (unmarried at this point and fated to die in August of the same year in OTL), married to Mary. Boy, if England were ever to go up in all the flames, this is the way to do it. Forget the Italian Wars, the War of the English Succession would become THE defining conflict of TTL's 16th Century. No way in hell Charles V would ever allow this to happen. And if he even suspects the Auld Alliance becomes stronger, he tries to block that too, unless he could convince the Scots to drop the French as allies completely and let the cousins marry.
 
Cousins married each other left and right at this time. And to quote Desmirelle's thread "Popes were remarkable flexible when it came to thrones" so obtaining a papal dispensation would not be difficult.

Actually bringing England and Scotland toghether would not be good for France I think. Mary were not pro-french, so a England-Scotland-Hapsburg alliance is likely to happen in this case. Francis would not want James to marry Mary, so not good for him.

So Charles is likely to support the marriage between Mary I of England and James V of Scotland.


But back to Jane Seymour now.
 
but if Charles V has the Pope's ear, wouldn't this marriage be prevented by rule of consanguinity, hypocrisy, and shenanigans?

Actually, Karl would probably push for it. It means that James is kept out of a French marriage. (James courted several Habsburg or half-Habsburg ladies (Kristina of Denmark, the Dowager Queen of Hungary, Maria of Viseu) to show the French "give a bride like you promised [in the treaty of Rouen] or else"). If the toss up were to be between the bewitchingly beautiful Madeleine and a woman who has her own frigging country, guess which one Jamie's going for? Hint, she ain't French
 
@isabella's right. Karl can cause a backlash by being too open to Mary. Not to mention, Karl has just (March/April 1536 IIRC) signed an agreement/treaty with Henry wherein he not only recognizes Anne Boleyn as queen with Elizabeth (and any sons by Anne as lawful successor) but wherein Elizabeth is also tentatively betrothed to the future Felipe II. (IMO) The minute Katherine died Karl V fell over his feet to mend fences with Henry. The incident at the Greenwich Chapel Royal over Easter 1536 - wherein Chapuys was obliged to yield to "the concubine" - would not have happened had Karl not wanted it to. Henry apparently stage managed the meeting to see how serious Karl was. Chapuys himself might've had a personal dislike for Anne, but the fact that he did yield shows that the emperor was willing to let bygones be bygones (for now), since Chapuys was probably under orders to debase himself such.
If Henry is already croaked in this scenario, does Charles even bother honoring this agreement if he sees a chance to swing things his way to truly dick over the hated Francis? I can't imagine there would be too many people in England super excited to see the Scots, or the French by proxy, gain the future of the throne.
 
Actually, Karl would probably push for it. It means that James is kept out of a French marriage. (James courted several Habsburg or half-Habsburg ladies (Kristina of Denmark, the Dowager Queen of Hungary, Maria of Viseu) to show the French "give a bride like you promised [in the treaty of Rouen] or else"). If the toss up were to be between the bewitchingly beautiful Madeleine and a woman who has her own frigging country, guess which one Jamie's going for? Hint, she ain't French

This scenario leads to flames too, lol. I could see Charles paying off James to abandon the Auld Alliance to gain a new kingdom, but Francis would be none too happy about it and may perceive that as the Habsburgs encircling him on all sides, the French nightmare scenario.
 
Well, the Scots were the least foreign of the alternatives, plus it unites the countries. I imagine that parliament would impose extremly strict rules for the union, like let Mary have the majority of power in england and keep the english appointed posts to englishmen. But it could work. Scotland is likely to do the same concerning the english.
 
Actually bringing England and Scotland toghether would not be good for France I think. Mary were not pro-french, so a England-Scotland-Hapsburg alliance is likely to happen in this case. Francis would not want James to marry Mary, so not good for him.

So Charles is likely to support the marriage between Mary I of England and James V of Scotland.
Are we familiar at all with Mary's political views when she was 20 years old? I know she became anti-French later on.

At any rate, I dunno, I just feel that if Charles could tacitly turn things to his benefit by finding some random Habsburg-affiliated noble to wed to Mary, preferably a relative of his, he's able to assure the English that the future of their throne isn't going to be Scottish or French, all while dicking over Francis at the same time, because, seriously, screw Francis as far as Charles is concerned. Every major prince in Europe will be coming out of the woodwork to see if they could marry the heir to England.
 
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