AHC: Have the Whites winning the Russian Civil War result in something far worse than the Soviet Union

I'm bored and want to see some tropes subverted.

As the titles suggests, the challenge here is to have one of the white factions win the Russian Civil War and create a Russia that is by most metrics a far shitter place to live then even the Stalinist USSR (worse living standards, even even more genocide and brutal oppression).
 
Just let White Russia falling to chaos and then someone nazi type war lord winning in 1930's. Their regime then begins to blame Jews, Muslims and all of non-slavs about all shit what Russians have faced. They begin practise extreme harsh persecutions and try russificate all slavs. The government too begn loot all of arms and there is massive famines.

And finally Russia begins total invasion to rest of Eurpe and begin to pratise very genocidal politics.
 
Russia under the rule of a member of the Black Hundreds, bent on eradicating the Jews and any Catholic Slavs in their reach (read: Poles), could easily rack up a death toll in the millions.
 

dcharles

Banned
I'm bored and want to see some tropes subverted.

As the titles suggests, the challenge here is to have one of the white factions win the Russian Civil War and create a Russia that is by most metrics a far shitter place to live then even the Stalinist USSR (worse living standards, even even more genocide and brutal oppression).

I'm not sure that's much of a challenge. It was a pretty chaotic civil war, and there were lots of groups who were as bad or worse than the Communists. I'm not sure that any of the regimes would have engineered famines, like that monster Stalin did, but genocides seem likely.
 
Soviet Union came perilously close to joining the Axis at one point in 1940...
The Soviet Union joining up with the Anti-Comintern Pact headed by a country who wanted to repeat the Native American genocide on them as anything more than a co belligerence is shall we say rather unlikely.

Also misses the point of the thread.
To answer the OP, Iron Storm?

Iron Storm is ASB
 
I'm bored and want to see some tropes subverted.

As the titles suggests, the challenge here is to have one of the white factions win the Russian Civil War and create a Russia that is by most metrics a far shitter place to live then even the Stalinist USSR (worse living standards, even even more genocide and brutal oppression).
Do you consider Nestor Makhno and Symon Petliura to be anti-Communist? If so, I believe that they would be the faction most suited to making Russia a worse place to live than the Stalinist USSR (this is assuming that either of them can conquer Russia ITTL as opposed to staying based in Ukraine like IOTL). Petliura was a Ukrainian ultra-nationalist who was responsible for a large number of deadly pogroms against Jews, with more Jews being killed under Petliura's rule than under any other Russian faction. It's not too much of a stretch to assume that he could be responsible for a nationwide Holocaust-style mass pogrom against the Russian Jewish population at some point down the line, and this would be a genocide of Holocaust-level proportions (there were about 5 million Jews in the Russian Empire at this time). Nestor Makhno would be even worse: his Anarchists were anti-Semites who engaged in bloody pogroms against Jews (just like Petliura's men), and the man himself was a drunkard who frequently engaged in sexual crimes against women. His anarcho-communism, however, would prove to be the real killer here, seeing as history has shown us that the more radical and the more revolutionary an ideological regime is, the more bloody will be its reign. I thus have no doubt that the Makhnovshchina, if extended to include all of Russia, would lead to the deaths of many millions of innocent individuals as the anarcho-communist system consumes and destroys itself from within.
 
Do you consider Nestor Makhno and Symon Petliura to be anti-Communist? If so, I believe that they would be the faction most suited to making Russia a worse place to live than the Stalinist USSR (this is assuming that either of them can conquer Russia ITTL as opposed to staying based in Ukraine like IOTL). Petliura was a Ukrainian ultra-nationalist who was responsible for a large number of deadly pogroms against Jews, with more Jews being killed under Petliura's rule than under any other Russian faction. It's not too much of a stretch to assume that he could be responsible for a nationwide Holocaust-style mass pogrom against the Russian Jewish population at some point down the line, and this would be a genocide of Holocaust-level proportions (there were about 5 million Jews in the Russian Empire at this time). Nestor Makhno would be even worse: his Anarchists were anti-Semites who engaged in bloody pogroms against Jews (just like Petliura's men), and the man himself was a drunkard who frequently engaged in sexual crimes against women. His anarcho-communism, however, would prove to be the real killer here, seeing as history has shown us that the more radical and the more revolutionary an ideological regime is, the more bloody will be its reign. I thus have no doubt that the Makhnovshchina, if extended to include all of Russia, would lead to the deaths of many millions of innocent individuals as the anarcho-communist system consumes and destroys itself from within.
From what I've heard the accounts of extreme anti-semitism among the Ukrainian anarchists were literal Bolshevik propaganda.
 
Not that hard to imagine a right-wing Russian regime that industrializes genocide of Jews, Roma, Muslims, and other minorities - particularly if it's one that radicalizes once a Great Depression hits.
 
If said regime isn't imperialist the way Mussolini and Hitler were, it could probably survive for a long time; the trick in the 30s and 40s wasn't what you did to your own citizens, it was what threat did you pose to your neighbors.
 
From what I've heard the accounts of extreme anti-semitism among the Ukrainian anarchists were literal Bolshevik propaganda.
While there is some dispute around Makhno's personal anti-Semitism, you can't deny that the Anarchists had a significant number of anti-Semites within their ranks. According to the book Pogroms: Anti-Jewish Violence in Modern Russian History, "the anarchist leader could not or did not impose discipline on his soldiers. In the name of 'class struggle' his troops with particular enthusiasm robbed Jews of whatever they had" (I remember that quote from a book that I read a while back, and I looked it up in order to ascertain that it was indeed from that book). So, while Makhno himself may not have been that big of an anti-Semite, there is no doubt that an Anarchist Russia would have seen a very large number of pogroms against the "capitalist Jews" who Makhno's men (like many Ukrainians at the time) saw to be "the enemy of the Motherland".
 
(Really, if I I sat you down in 1910 and said "in thirty years, a European nation is going to carry out a horrific act of mass murder against Europe's Jewish population", you'd probably say 'those damn Tsars and their Cossacks', or maybe France if you were feeling contrarian...)
 
(Really, if I I sat you down in 1910 and said "in thirty years, a European nation is going to carry out a horrific act of mass murder against Europe's Jewish population", you'd probably say 'those damn Tsars and their Cossacks', or maybe France if you were feeling contrarian...)
You don't even have to peel it back to 1910, they where doing pogroms in the Ukraine and killing Jews by the 10's of thousands in 1917-1918
 
Do you consider Nestor Makhno and Symon Petliura to be anti-Communist? If so, I believe that they would be the faction most suited to making Russia a worse place to live than the Stalinist USSR (this is assuming that either of them can conquer Russia ITTL as opposed to staying based in Ukraine like IOTL). Petliura was a Ukrainian ultra-nationalist who was responsible for a large number of deadly pogroms against Jews, with more Jews being killed under Petliura's rule than under any other Russian faction. It's not too much of a stretch to assume that he could be responsible for a nationwide Holocaust-style mass pogrom against the Russian Jewish population at some point down the line, and this would be a genocide of Holocaust-level proportions (there were about 5 million Jews in the Russian Empire at this time). Nestor Makhno would be even worse: his Anarchists were anti-Semites who engaged in bloody pogroms against Jews (just like Petliura's men), and the man himself was a drunkard who frequently engaged in sexual crimes against women. His anarcho-communism, however, would prove to be the real killer here, seeing as history has shown us that the more radical and the more revolutionary an ideological regime is, the more bloody will be its reign. I thus have no doubt that the Makhnovshchina, if extended to include all of Russia, would lead to the deaths of many millions of innocent individuals as the anarcho-communist system consumes and destroys itself from within.
Didn't Petliura issue directives against pogroms? There might have been a large number committed by his forces, but it seems to have been in spite of him rather than because him. In any event, since he was a Ukrainian nationalist, I don't think he would be interested in subjugating his country to Moscow again (and Petliura somehow rebuilding Kiev into the center of 'Russia' as before the Mongols stretches plausibility).
 
That didn't stop Goering from wooing Poland in 1937-38 in case of a war with Czechoslovakia/Soviet Union.
A lot of people forget that there was a "detente" of sorts for a few years, after Pilsudski's death and before 1939, when relations between the Sanacja regime in Poland and the Nazis were pretty good. There were attempts, for example, to bring Poland into Anti-Comintern... of course, turning Poland into another Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, or Croatia would've conflicted with the ideas of Himmler, etc...
I doubt it's any coincidence that Poland turned into possibly the second-most antisemitic country in Europe during those years...
 
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