AHC: Have the USA become a sexually liberal nation by the late 20th centuary

masturbation is considered normal and a positive way to relieve sexual tension, open discussions on sexual matters can be had by people of any age, etc.

If you think that the USA already had this to a degree by that time then list ways that it could have been more the norm. I'll allow pre-1900 PODs if its seen as necessary.

Masturbation was already pretty much normal and accepted by the '90s IOTL I'd say. Not exactly something you can do in public- as the guy that made the Kony movie found out in San Diego but not seen as a bad thing in private.
What do you mean by "open discussions on sexual matters can be had by people of any age" btw?
 
Masturbation was already pretty much normal and accepted by the '90s IOTL I'd say. Not exactly something you can do in public- as the guy that made the Kony movie found out in San Diego but not seen as a bad thing in private.
What do you mean by "open discussions on sexual matters can be had by people of any age" btw?
That its not considered "wrong" for children to discuss sex for instance. I once hid a Victoria's Secret catalogue under my bed when I was seven and when it was found I was punished and told that I "Shouldn't be thinking about that stuff yet". I wan't this to be avoided.
 
That its not considered "wrong" for children to discuss sex for instance. I once hid a Victoria's Secret catalogue under my bed when I was seven and when it was found I was punished and told that I "Shouldn't be thinking about that stuff yet". I wan't this to be avoided.

Ok. Not sure how to make that happen. Are there any cultures historically where adults, particularly parents, haven't been somewhat uncomfortable talking about sex to children or with children's sexuality?
 
Ok. Not sure how to make that happen. Are there any cultures historically where adults, particularly parents, haven't been somewhat uncomfortable talking about sex to children or with children's sexuality?
Some tribes in New Guinea come to mind but I doubt that can help us much in this instance.
 
Some tribes in New Guinea come to mind but I doubt that can help us much in this instance.

Hell, are they all that comfortable with the issue? Allowing the sexual act to occur is not necessarily the same thing as being comfortable with it, let alone discussing it.
 
Hell, are they all that comfortable with the issue? Allowing the sexual act to occur is not necessarily the same thing as being comfortable with it, let alone discussing it.

I actually wonder if there might be a biological or evolutionary reason for so many people and cultures being uncomfortable with child sexuality and discussing sex with children? Maybe natures way of avoiding pedophilia? Seems like that would be similar to the near universal issues cultures across time and space have had with incest and similar avoidance of incest recorded in other species.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Is there any way to avoid the Hays Code? That would probably speed up sex, nudity, etc in movies by many years.

Yes, you have to change a Supreme Court decision from about 1916 that allowed local governments to censor movies. The logic basically was "movies don't involve free speech since they are a business". The Hays code was agreed to by the movie industry to avoid dealing with 100's/1000's of local censorship boards.

The Supreme Court back then was quite a political beast, just as today, just as in the days of Dred Scott.
 
Yes, you have to change a Supreme Court decision from about 1916 that allowed local governments to censor movies. The logic basically was "movies don't involve free speech since they are a business". The Hays code was agreed to by the movie industry to avoid dealing with 100's/1000's of local censorship boards.

The Supreme Court back then was quite a political beast, just as today, just as in the days of Dred Scott.

Having that case put movies under Amendment 1 would change all that. You probably won't have f-bombs and full frontal nudity in the first talkies but considering how prudish the Hays Code was by '30s standards you still have movies being a lot more risque.
 
I actually wonder if there might be a biological or evolutionary reason for so many people and cultures being uncomfortable with child sexuality and discussing sex with children? Maybe natures way of avoiding pedophilia? Seems like that would be similar to the near universal issues cultures across time and space have had with incest and similar avoidance of incest recorded in other species.
I don't know but I'm of the opinion that early and detailed education of sex would help prevent pedophilia since if children are able to understand what sex and thus what sexual abuse is they cannot be taken advantage of as easily. Perhaps if this could somehow be accepted in the publics mind during an early time it could help in liberalizing the US.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Having that case put movies under Amendment 1 would change all that. You probably won't have f-bombs and full frontal nudity in the first talkies but considering how prudish the Hays Code was by '30s standards you still have movies being a lot more risque.

Go look at the plots of the pre-code movies and look at the first Tarzan movie which was partially under the Hayes code. In one pre-code movie, it is a drama about how a women sleeps her way to the top, not a comedy like we do, but a serious drama. In the Tarzan movie, you can clearly see the bottom side of his buttocks. And the women has a top that is very similar to tops you see on beaches today for women with A's or small B's. Also, the first animated movie is about a mice with human sexual organs who have sex. Without the code, I think by the 1930's you are into the heavy R's and heading into NC-17 land.
 
I don't know but I'm of the opinion that early and detailed education of sex would help prevent pedophilia since if children are able to understand what sex and thus what sexual abuse is they cannot be taken advantage of as easily. Perhaps if this could somehow be accepted in the publics mind during an early time it could help in liberalizing the US.

It probably would from a practical standpoint but I'm wondering if the awkwardness is a side effect of a general evolutionary/biological aversion to sex with those too young to reproduce. If this evolved before anatomically modern humans it might predate language and thus sex ed.
 
Go look at the plots of the pre-code movies and look at the first Tarzan movie which was partially under the Hayes code. In one pre-code movie, it is a drama about how a women sleeps her way to the top, not a comedy like we do, but a serious drama. In the Tarzan movie, you can clearly see the bottom side of his buttocks. And the women has a top that is very similar to tops you see on beaches today for women with A's or small B's. Also, the first animated movie is about a mice with human sexual organs who have sex. Without the code, I think by the 1930's you are into the heavy R's and heading into NC-17 land.

Would many R, NC-17 level movies have been acceptable in the '30s or would we see an earlier development of OTLs divide between independent or major studio "Oscar Bait" filled completely with nudity and sex while more widespread movies are a little more toned down?
 
I wish that everyone would quit saying , "If only Reagan isn't or Humphrey is elected". Politicians are just greasy, opportunistic weasels, willing and able to grab at anything that they think will give them an edge for the next election. Haven't any of you been watching "Boardwalk Empire"?

In order to make a more liberal society we need to get rid of those social reformers and "moral crusaders for the public good" and other such troublemakers and then the rest of us can enjoy a good old time in their absence. :D
 
Go look at the plots of the pre-code movies and look at the first Tarzan movie which was partially under the Hayes code. In one pre-code movie, it is a drama about how a women sleeps her way to the top, not a comedy like we do, but a serious drama. In the Tarzan movie, you can clearly see the bottom side of his buttocks. And the women has a top that is very similar to tops you see on beaches today for women with A's or small B's. Also, the first animated movie is about a mice with human sexual organs who have sex. Without the code, I think by the 1930's you are into the heavy R's and heading into NC-17 land.
What are the titles of those other films?
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Preventing that scandal should be fairly easy. Could have some major Hollywood butterflies if Fatty is still able to work as a big name actor.

From writing a TL perspective, sure it is easy. Depending upon what you believe cause the women's death, she can just die on a different day or a different location. And yes, if we avoid the Fatty case combined with the Supreme Court ruling, the Hayes codes never goes into effect, and we live in a different world in relation to Hollywood sexual morals on the screen.

But the underlying issues related to why Fatty was prosecuted is harder to deal handle. A noticeable group of people thought Hollywood was terribly corrupt. The prosecutor obviously falls into this group as does the judge involved and the police involved. So if not Fatty, it is likely some other vastly overblown non-crime. Fatty is one of the few murder case where we can say the accused was actually innocent. All that really happened here was a young lady died after attending a Hollywood party of unknown causes. The Police then made up evidence and found false witnesses. Fatty's case was handled more like he was America's most wanted criminal, and the evidence was manufactured. With a motivation to frame a major Hollywood star, it will just happen to a different person or on a different day.
 
I think its strange, if somebody wants to change some developments of the last decades and the reaction is: "Oh, we have to go back to Adam and Eve for a POD!"
Definitly the USA is today much more sexual liberal Nation then as it were ,for an example, in 1965. Its just not as sexual liberal then comparable other western Nations. Definitly they USA follows the same cultural trends like the other western Nations. Beginning of sexual liberation in the 1920th, backlash in the 1930th, stagnation or even rollback till the 1950th, new beginning of sexual liberation in the 1960/70th. I don´t think that minor changes in the 1930th can buck this trend.
I also think, that in the 1970th the USA was seen by the most western Europeans (with the exception of the Swedes) as much more sexual liberal. So what happend? AIDS? No! AIDS happend in all other western Nations too and didn´t changed the general trend. In some way I even think AIDS pushed the gay-rights-movement more then it hurt her.
And so we come back to Roe vs. Wade as a potential POD. It gave the USA what other western Nation don´t have, a popular grassroot counter-movement.
 
I think its strange, if somebody wants to change some developments of the last decades and the reaction is: "Oh, we have to go back to Adam and Eve for a POD!"
Definitly the USA is today much more sexual liberal Nation then as it were ,for an example, in 1965. Its just not as sexual liberal then comparable other western Nations. Definitly they USA follows the same cultural trends like the other western Nations. Beginning of sexual liberation in the 1920th, backlash in the 1930th, stagnation or even rollback till the 1950th, new beginning of sexual liberation in the 1960/70th. I don´t think that minor changes in the 1930th can buck this trend.
I also think, that in the 1970th the USA was seen by the most western Europeans (with the exception of the Swedes) as much more sexual liberal. So what happend? AIDS? No! AIDS happend in all other western Nations too and didn´t changed the general trend. In some way I even think AIDS pushed the gay-rights-movement more then it hurt her.
And so we come back to Roe vs. Wade as a potential POD. It gave the USA what other western Nation don´t have, a popular grassroot counter-movement.

I think you are on to something. The very sexual liberalism of the '70s might be as well, for TV and especially movies. Nudity became such a staple of '70s/early '80s movies, especially bad B movies that it became a cliche which 'real" movies looking for an Oscar sought to avoid in the later '80s and '90s by toning down. You didn't really have a rebirth of shown sex in critically acclaimed or artistic films until the late '90s and films like American Beauty and Eyes Wide Shut. The X rating being taken over by pure porn rather than the mature art films as it was intended for created issues as well.
 
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