AHC: Have the Schlieffen Plan Succeed in WWI & Have Germany Lose WWI Afterwards

Thomas1195

Banned
Trouble is the Germans can't take Paris unless they've knocked out the French field armies first.

The city would have to be conquered street by street, and Germany hasn't the manpower for that as long as it's also fighting the French field armies.
Not to mention the fortification defending Paris
 
What happens if the Russians dont invade Prussia but simply build a defence in depth and concentrate on the Galician front. Without the invasion of Prussia the Russians invade Austro-Hungary offering independence for all the diverse peoples of the old Empire like Hungarians, Ruthenians and Slovakians. Take the whole east of Austro-Hungary out and where does Germany get its Oil and plus the rail lines to Allies like Turkey and Bulgaria are cut. With the Russians offering freedom to the peoples of the region I imagine small groups like the Slovenes Croats and Italians will want to get freedom as well the remains of german Austria will be too busy trying to defend themselves against freedom fighters to fight an army.

The A-H Empire dissolves in 1915 and Germanys south eastern border is vulnerable.
 
Not to mention the fortification defending Paris
I see your fortifications and raise you a Big Bertha (16.5" Howitzer shell weight 1,800 lbs)or they could just do what they did in 1871, lay siege to Paris until it surrenders.But they still lose a crap load of men getting to Paris.
 
What happens if the Russians dont invade Prussia but simply build a defence in depth and concentrate on the Galician front. Without the invasion of Prussia the Russians invade Austro-Hungary offering independence for all the diverse peoples of the old Empire like Hungarians, Ruthenians and Slovakians. Take the whole east of Austro-Hungary out and where does Germany get its Oil and plus the rail lines to Allies like Turkey and Bulgaria are cut. With the Russians offering freedom to the peoples of the region I imagine small groups like the Slovenes Croats and Italians will want to get freedom as well the remains of german Austria will be too busy trying to defend themselves against freedom fighters to fight an army.

The A-H Empire dissolves in 1915 and Germanys south eastern border is vulnerable.
The Hungarians got a way sweeter deal in A-H than they could ever get alone; nevermind that the Carpathian mountains are pretty terrible and, as such, the Germans should be able to reinforce the west side of them faster than the Russians can cross them.

Especially if the Germans meanwhile have freed up their western armies, it sounds like a deathtrap with Germans advancing south(east) from Warsaw/Katowice towards Krakow and Lvov; Russian armies stuck in the mountains could prove unable to fall back fast enough to avoid being encircled as the Germans march in, while the western German(-Austrian) forces pin them in place.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
What happens if the Russians dont invade Prussia but simply build a defence in depth and concentrate on the Galician front. Without the invasion of Prussia the Russians invade Austro-Hungary offering independence for all the diverse peoples of the old Empire like Hungarians, Ruthenians and Slovakians. Take the whole east of Austro-Hungary out and where does Germany get its Oil and plus the rail lines to Allies like Turkey and Bulgaria are cut. With the Russians offering freedom to the peoples of the region I imagine small groups like the Slovenes Croats and Italians will want to get freedom as well the remains of german Austria will be too busy trying to defend themselves against freedom fighters to fight an army.

The A-H Empire dissolves in 1915 and Germanys south eastern border is vulnerable.
Your idea here is impractical since France wouldn't have Russia relieve German pressure on it in this TL; indeed, Russian troops attacking Germany in the East indirectly provided relief for French troops fighting the Germans in the West.
 
I see your fortifications and raise you a Big Bertha (16.5" Howitzer shell weight 1,800 lbs)or they could just do what they did in 1871, lay siege to Paris until it surrenders.But they still lose a crap load of men getting to Paris.


Same problem. To completely encircle Paris (whose fortifications enclosed a huge area) would tie up so many troops that the remainder would stand no chance of defeating the French armies.

The aim of the Schlieffen Plan was not to take Paris but to knock out the French armies. This was why it had effectively failed when it got to Paris, since then it must either bypass Paris to the west, which would create a supercolossal gap in its line, or else bunch up and go east of Paris, in which case it exposed its flank to attack by the Paris garrison. Essentially they blew their chance of winning in 1914 when they failed to destroy the BEF and V Army in the Battles of the Frontiers.
 
The Paris fortifications had seen no modernisations after their construction; they wouldn't resist ordinary 21-cm howitzers. Encircling Paris would have been a task for reserve, landwehr, ersatz and landsturm units. Fighting for Paris would depend on the garrison. The original one (two reserve divisions and marine brigade) had been sent to the field as part of 6th Army. So, actually, after a Marne victory, there would be no garrison at all - at least until somebody decided to sent someone, while the rest of the French forces moved south to the plateau of Langres.
 
In this scenario I assume that at least one French Army, Lanzerac's Fifth is the usual suspect, has been encircled and destroyed/surrendered which makes things such as a siege of Paris possible.

What it doesn't make possible is Germany losing the war after defeating France in 1914/15, I'm afraid.
 
Your idea here is impractical since France wouldn't have Russia relieve German pressure on it in this TL; indeed, Russian troops attacking Germany in the East indirectly provided relief for French troops fighting the Germans in the West.

I thought you said France was quickly defeated like in WWII. I was working on that assumption with Russia not invading Prussia but concentrating on defeating A-H empire. By the time Germany has finished with France Russia has finished with A-H. Germany is cut off from oil the Ottomans and Bulgaria are isolated and dont join the Axis.

Have you now got France fighting on.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
I thought you said France was quickly defeated like in WWII. I was working on that assumption with Russia not invading Prussia but concentrating on defeating A-H empire. By the time Germany has finished with France Russia has finished with A-H. Germany is cut off from oil the Ottomans and Bulgaria are isolated and dont join the Axis.

Have you now got France fighting on.
What I meant here is that your scenario here is unrealistic because it is contrary to what Russia needs to do in order to protect its French ally.
 
The Germans don't need to take Paris or even totally invest it. If they pass it to the west and also cover the south they have effectively isolated it. Unless there is a substantial garrison in Paris, which there was not OTL, a relatively light screen can prevent any significant interference with the German logistics connections. With Paris more or less cut off from the rest of the country, except to the east, the government will either have to displace or lose control. Given the French rail system the German Army north, west, and south of Paris screws up French rail traffic in a big way.

I can't see the Germans getting involved in a city fight in Paris. Why?
 
The Germans don't need to take Paris or even totally invest it. If they pass it to the west and also cover the south they have effectively isolated it. Unless there is a substantial garrison in Paris, which there was not OTL, a relatively light screen can prevent any significant interference with the German logistics connections. With Paris more or less cut off from the rest of the country, except to the east, the government will either have to displace or lose control. Given the French rail system the German Army north, west, and south of Paris screws up French rail traffic in a big way.

I can't see the Germans getting involved in a city fight in Paris. Why?
Angry population with a lot of gun factories ?
 
An angry population with guns (and btw limited raw materials to make more or ammunition) is, at best, a well armed mob. Putting them up against even reserve/Landwehr German troops is simply asking them to die in large numbers.
 
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