AHC Have the Jews become a majority in europe during the bubonic plague
- Thread starter Igor MGTOW
- Start date
-
- Tags
- ahc
I doubt that being possible. You should find way the plague to kill most of non-Jewish Europeans withoug affecting to Jews. And furthermore you should find way to stop remaining non-Jewish Europeans beginning pogdoms against Jews when they find out that the plague has not affected to Jews. Pretty hard when they persecuted Jews anyway in OTL.
well the plague killed half of european population so making it 60-80% would not be that much of a stretch and also in OTL the bubonic plague affected jews less than europeans primarily due to the fact at the time majority of western europeans didnt have much in the way of cleaning habits there are already alternate history scenarios about bubonic plague wiping out europe and this is my own version even though the scenario is far fetched it still is possible
Their is no proofs that the Jewish population in Europe were affected less than the Christian population.
I will say that they will be probably more affected as the Jews lived mostly in cities and the urban population were the most affected by the plague.
Entire regions of Northen and Eastern Europe where urban population was small and population density was lower than in Western Europe were less affected by the plague.
Your remarks about cleaning habits is derogatory and the idea that in Medieval times people were dirty is one of these false memes of historical stereotypes.
But they were far cleaner than they were after the plague. They bathed regularly. Ever heard of the Order of the Bath? It was founded by King Henry IV, who viewed bathing as a seriously important thing, practically and also spiritually.
The remark is derogatory because the poster wrote that :
First I don't understand why the poster separated Jews from Europeans. During the Plague, Jews were living in Europe since at least 13 centuries and such were and are Europeans.
Second it is derogatory to Christians Europeans as the poster implied that Jews are more clean than Christians.
Thomas1195
Banned
@Intosh I heard about loads of "dirty Medieval Europe" stories, such as:
Nobles just pooping/pissing on the floor while dancing/drinking/eating in parties/banquets, and this is not limited to Medieval era.
Or, Medieval people in cities casually throwing/pouring feces and urinate on the streets as a way to dispose them.
Also, the famous legend of Medieval people drinking beer and ale because water was too dirty as well.
Nobles just pooping/pissing on the floor while dancing/drinking/eating in parties/banquets, and this is not limited to Medieval era.
Or, Medieval people in cities casually throwing/pouring feces and urinate on the streets as a way to dispose them.
Also, the famous legend of Medieval people drinking beer and ale because water was too dirty as well.
Dear Intosh,
Lighten up!
Remember your sense of humour.
From a genetic perspective, it is possible to postulate a Jewish population where some genetic mutation (Tay-Sacks Disease?) grants Jews immunity form the bubonic plague. Even that is a stretch because so many Jews inter-married with local Slavs, Germans, etc. that hardly any "pure" Jews remained. Only the tightest of extremely Orthodox Jewish sects could hope to share enough of the genetic variation to become immune to the latest plague.
So it is possible for isolated, Orthodox Jewish communities to remain immune to the plague, but highly un-likely.
As for European cleaning habits ... Spanish Conquestadors were astounded at how neat and clean Mexico City was when they conquered it.
Lighten up!
Remember your sense of humour.
From a genetic perspective, it is possible to postulate a Jewish population where some genetic mutation (Tay-Sacks Disease?) grants Jews immunity form the bubonic plague. Even that is a stretch because so many Jews inter-married with local Slavs, Germans, etc. that hardly any "pure" Jews remained. Only the tightest of extremely Orthodox Jewish sects could hope to share enough of the genetic variation to become immune to the latest plague.
So it is possible for isolated, Orthodox Jewish communities to remain immune to the plague, but highly un-likely.
As for European cleaning habits ... Spanish Conquestadors were astounded at how neat and clean Mexico City was when they conquered it.
Plague that remains bubonic (spreading through lymph system only) is not transmittable directly between humans, you need fleas to transfer it. For your scenario you would need something unique to medieval european Jewish culture, not copied by their gentile neighbours - some spice they eat, or some sort of cloth only they wear - that repels fleas. It still does not keep them safe in case a plague goes pneumonic, when Yersinia Pestis spreads from the lymph system to the lungs - but at least as long as they have contact with only bubonic victims, they cannot catch the plague.
Bathing went out of fashion after the Medieval period, not during it.
medieval people where not covered in s***t but they where filthy. They lived together with animals wich was not hygenic. Sewers did not really exist, the dinner plate was also not invented noble men ate on top of large flat breads (pains in French) often times nobles shared this bread plate with one another to discuss their busniss making the co-pains, they did not eat the bread yust the toppings aftherwards they breads got collected and shared to the peasentry this to is filthy, they also had never ending stews where they kept dumping stuff in a kettle and eating fom it at the same time leaving stews that could be months old. During famines the put saw dust in their bread you can gues they also did fraud during their better days but it's essentialy dumping Industrial waste in your food supply.
Also nobody cleanend their eating utinsils that's the reason you sometime see cartoons from someone with a fork in his hat, as people are this filthy bring your own fork was a must.
In bruges at the time bath houses where also a little bid more fansy brothels
Also nobody cleanend their eating utinsils that's the reason you sometime see cartoons from someone with a fork in his hat, as people are this filthy bring your own fork was a must.
In bruges at the time bath houses where also a little bid more fansy brothels
Yes, many medieval people did eat from trenchers, and obviously sometimes they were shared, but don't you tell me that modern people don't share plates now and then. As for the "never ending stews," I daresay you've forgotten that they regularly kept them over the fire for hours on end, which would've killed any infectious diseases in the pot. As for putting sawdust in one's bread, desperate people have done the same in the modern world, and it's not unhygienic because the bread is cooked, which kills any bacteria that could have been lingering in the wood, so it's really not that horrible. It's something anybody would do in their situation. As for putting sawdust into bread as fraud, it was standard practice to punish it very harshly, as the guilds of the towns and cities were anxious to keep a good public image. As for people never cleaning their cooking utensils, they wiped them off with cloths, and if there was a nasty smell lingering around them, I daresay they would've noticed and done something about it. In addition, Medieval people didn't have forks, so the cartoons you mentioned are obviously apocryphal or were depicting 18th-17th century people, not Medieval people. As for bath houses, yes, they were often brothels, but it was not the rule, and there were other ways to clean oneself, such as by going into a body of water, or a barrel filled with water.
As I understand it, the Jewish population of medieval Europe was very specialised into urban trade and occupations - so in a catastrophic collapse of the general population, you'd see the higher level economies which they're reliant and which rely on trade in food, and protection by armed men who are fed and paid, basically collapse completely.
When we had the slow deurbanization in the post-Roman period, had we looked in a time-lapse, we basically would've seen these urban populations dying out slowly, rather than escaping from this situation by colonizing the countryside or anything like this.
In OTL Black Death, we actually see increase in urbanization, because of complex economic effects, and in general in the wider context European Jews are expanding in population disproportionately from a small initial population base, on the back of the expansion of towns and relative specialisation (despite pogroms et al!), and so the Black Death perhaps benefits further. But in a world where a mutated version of the Black Death kills vast amounts to literally destablizes the political order and economy to the point that trade in food and political security in cities almost stops, you're probably going to see virtually the opposite outcome (disproportionate demographic contraction of European Jews), even in a situation where the plague itself somehow has lower effects on that group.
When we had the slow deurbanization in the post-Roman period, had we looked in a time-lapse, we basically would've seen these urban populations dying out slowly, rather than escaping from this situation by colonizing the countryside or anything like this.
In OTL Black Death, we actually see increase in urbanization, because of complex economic effects, and in general in the wider context European Jews are expanding in population disproportionately from a small initial population base, on the back of the expansion of towns and relative specialisation (despite pogroms et al!), and so the Black Death perhaps benefits further. But in a world where a mutated version of the Black Death kills vast amounts to literally destablizes the political order and economy to the point that trade in food and political security in cities almost stops, you're probably going to see virtually the opposite outcome (disproportionate demographic contraction of European Jews), even in a situation where the plague itself somehow has lower effects on that group.
This is, unfortunately, pretty unlikely. Jews were well under 1% of the population of Europe as a whole at this time. Any event permitting Jews to be a majority of Europe's population due to plague-related die-off would also involve the complete collapse of civilization.
You'd need something like people converting to Judaism en masse during the plague due to the perception that God was protecting the Jews from the disease...and that sort of perspective is hard to make happen, especially without a huge backlash from the Church and/or other locals, leading to - you guessed it! - pogroms!
You'd need something like people converting to Judaism en masse during the plague due to the perception that God was protecting the Jews from the disease...and that sort of perspective is hard to make happen, especially without a huge backlash from the Church and/or other locals, leading to - you guessed it! - pogroms!
sorry spoons not forks
have you ever put your fingers (unwashed) in someone else (a stranger) plate during dinner?
A brave man would find it tasty perhaps it would even pass health and safety this day it honnestly looks like a medieval version of Shawarma (pita) in a stew.
Not in the low countries it wasnt you could be punished for all sort of things quality on cloth was insane but if you sold bread with wood from a unlincensed mill you would get in trouble for using a unlicensed mill (it was a inportant source of income for the cities). It was also a way people made a census of the population how many bread is consumed to determine how many mouths their are.
they put stuff on top of the bread (for example chicken) you didn't eat the bread the juices would get into the bread and where handed out to the poor aftherwards. If you were rich you never eated the bread and didn't cut the bread, people sometimes cut peaces of the scrath their nose with, this was considered bad etiquette.
They would use leaves to clean them they occasionaly make newlones from cow horns that often had a sea voyage. Their cups werent that clean either.
Swimming pools are okay but bath houses/massage parrols to these day they have a reputation
You could also have jews having unusually high birthrates before the plague to make the jews a 3% minority in europe and thus when the plague wipes out europeans there would be more jews and a bit more europeans
Back to the OP, regardless of cleanliness. Essentially ASB given the relative levels of Christian and Jewish populations. Actually I should say totally ASB since to find a way to eliminate almost the entire Christian population while sparing the Jewish population would require a biological POD, which is not permitted.
There are certain clubs in the world today that a person may go to now that due to consumption of intoxicants, people still do vomit, defecate and urinate on accident or intentionally upon effect of these substances. I do not believe the feast and party hygiene was what the typical european interacted with and even so, parties cannot be held each day as said noble would exhaust his/her resources.
It is also important to note, it is not necessary in most traditional societies to possess sewers and these sorts of you are directly near major bodies of water. The custom in many societies along major river ways is to simply stock said waste into the riverways. Mesopotamian societies had no inclination or will to create such systems of sewers or sanitation as the river provided for them. The same is to be said for most riverine communities of the Middle Ages and for some societies today. The idea of a sewage and bathing system is novel in and of itself, european medieval society possessed public bath works which in and of itself is a somewhat advanced trait in a world and custom wherein most peoples found their bathing only in bodies of natural water. Sewage in the other hand, is not necessary as the major riverways fitting Europe can provide the necessary function, as it did with Babylon or Nineveh (both at one point, cities larger than many cities with sewage systems) (no one refers to Babylon as filthy in this board, despite it being very much similar to say the medieval Rhineland).
I am not sure regarding the infection of water. It would seem to me that the consumption of beers and so forth had more to do with increasing one’s caloric intake. In agricultural societies, the acquisition of calories in the form of packed beers and such, would have the benefit of giving you a good caloric meal in drink form. Likewise, it could be the case that consumption of alcohol was simply preferred, Europe had a tradition of this going far back in time of feasts wherein large quantities of alcohol were consumed. It is also important to note, that many major societies would have done the same practices of depositions waste into riverways, including the most major early civilizations and of some societies wherein the population density was highest.
Further, we should recognize that the Black Plague was a devastation not only upon Europe. Estimations are just as drastic for China and the Mid East as it is for Europe. Purported population decline alongside decreasing birth rates are associated with the Mid East following the bubonic plague. It is possible thus to argue, that countries such as Egypt may have been more mal-affected than Europe or similarly so.
Finally, reports of european customs, do often come from sources that at best are biased. Namely, men of the enlightenment and ‘renaissance’ whose goal was to demean their predecessors for the sake of a supposed ideal and whole classical era. Many of the assertions made by French enlightenment historians have been outright disproven, especially matters related to noble custom, law and precedence. The fact that critical views of hygiene applied only to Europe, depicts the persistent historiographic cosmology of the enlightenment, that of flawed historical agitators.
Otherwise, this is an impossible scenario. Jewish inhabitants of Europe are Europeans, often genetically they are drawn to those around them and have customs similar. Certain customs of kosher habits and supposed benefits from any other ritual cleaning, will not save you from a disease such as the one that erupted in Eurasia. The same way that Europeans constantly cleaning and bathing never saved them from illness that was to them incomprehensible (European thought revolved around the notion that illness was related to how clean or washed you were, this is silliness). Even public washing, sewage and so forth did not save the Hatti kingdom from a surge in the plague on the Middle Bronze Age. The only way to avoid such illnesses is to have a very sparse population of very hardy people on the move or in very small self contained villages. Scythians for instance would be a good model for disease resistance.