AHC: have Prussia annex Austria to unify

samcster94

Banned
in OTL, one of the ways Germany could have unified but didn't was to annex Austria, albeit it did win a war easily against them. There even was a term for it, Grossdeutsch, which contrasts to the Kaiser's founding of Germany in 1871 which is a Kleindeutsch. Bavaria, which is similar to Austria culturally and linguistically, was annexed despite its Catholic majority and remember, the Second Reich was quite anti-Catholic even for its time. What is a POD no later than Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo that can be used to get a Grossdeutsch???
 
IIRC gross Deutschland was implied to be led by Austria with an annexed Prussia, not the other way round.

For Prussia to successfully annex Austria, you'd have to eliminate Russia, France, and the UK as great powers. No options. Even in the OTL, a united Germany with Austria as a sidekick was enough to get most of Europe allied against them. In this scenario, destroying gross Deutschland is going to be top priority for the rest of the continent forever.
 
IIRC gross Deutschland was implied to be led by Austria with an annexed Prussia, not the other way round.

For Prussia to successfully annex Austria, you'd have to eliminate Russia, France, and the UK as great powers. No options. Even in the OTL, a united Germany with Austria as a sidekick was enough to get most of Europe allied against them. In this scenario, destroying gross Deutschland is going to be top priority for the rest of the continent forever.

Do you mean a Germany including the entire Austrian Empire, or only it's "German" provinces (ie Austria, Czechia and Slovenia)?

The former would be most unlikely for a Hohenzollern Germany, and the latter, though more populous than France, would be less so than Russia. It would also not be a naval power at that date, so Britain wouldn't be unduly worried. And the Tsar would prefer a Hohenzollern state to a Habsburg one. So there won't be any mad rush to overthrow it.
 
As I said in other thread, Austria being annexed is the perfect POD to create the Zentrum Reich.
 

samcster94

Banned
Do you mean a Germany including the entire Austrian Empire, or only it's "German" provinces (ie Austria, Czechia and Slovenia)?

The former would be most unlikely for a Hohenzollern Germany, and the latter, though more populous than France, would be less so than Russia. It would also not be a naval power at that date, so Britain wouldn't be unduly worried. And the Tsar would prefer a Hohenzollern state to a Habsburg one. So there won't be any mad rush to overthrow it.
Of course, it is only the German provinces. The rest of the empire is unclear, especially Hungary(whose language is as unrelated to Bengali as it is to German). Although not my prompt, an Austria doing the opposite(sorry if I mixed up my terms) is highly unlikely as iirc, they were trying to keep non Germans from rebelling(which is why they gave Hungary autonomy).
 
Of course, it is only the German provinces. The rest of the empire is unclear, especially Hungary(whose language is as unrelated to Bengali as it is to German). Although not my prompt, an Austria doing the opposite(sorry if I mixed up my terms) is highly unlikely as iirc, they were trying to keep non Germans from rebelling(which is why they gave Hungary autonomy).
So the entire A-H would collapse?
 
So the entire A-H would collapse?
That's perhaps putting it the wrong way round.

If it has lost all its German provinces, then presumably it already has collapsed. About the best the Habsburgs could then hope for would be if the Hungarians agreed to accept young Rudolf as their King, perhaps with Empress Elizabeth as Regent. And even that is far from assured.
 
Do you mean a Germany including the entire Austrian Empire, or only it's "German" provinces (ie Austria, Czechia and Slovenia)?

The former would be most unlikely for a Hohenzollern Germany, and the latter, though more populous than France, would be less so than Russia. It would also not be a naval power at that date, so Britain wouldn't be unduly worried. And the Tsar would prefer a Hohenzollern state to a Habsburg one. So there won't be any mad rush to overthrow it.
It's not an immediate threat to Britain or Russia, but it's a massive shift in the balance of power in Europe which Britain was very much interested in. And while Hohenzollern Germany may not want the non-German Austrian territories, they aren't going to leave a bunch of non-aligned countries sit on the Ottoman border.

Either way, Germany is just too big for anyone's comfort. Russia might stay out of it, but France and Britain have to act or accept the Prussian king as a new Napoleon.
 
It's not an immediate threat to Britain or Russia, but it's a massive shift in the balance of power in Europe which Britain was very much interested in. And while Hohenzollern Germany may not want the non-German Austrian territories, they aren't going to leave a bunch of non-aligned countries sit on the Ottoman border.

Either way, Germany is just too big for anyone's comfort. Russia might stay out of it, but France and Britain have to act or accept the Prussian king as a new Napoleon.

What sort of action?

Prussia has no colonies for the RN to attack, so beyond bombarding a few coastal forts, there's nothing much Britain can do even if it wants to. So if France goes to war it will essentially have to fight alone.

Incidentally, exactly when is the Greater Germany supposed to be set up? If it's in 1871, then France is flat on her back and can do nothing. If it's 1848, then the enlarged Germany has a population of about 45 million, against 36 million for France, so that she is stronger, but not overwhelmingly so. Would GB see this as a major threat to the balance of power?
 
in OTL, one of the ways Germany could have unified but didn't was to annex Austria, albeit it did win a war easily against them. There even was a term for it, Grossdeutsch, which contrasts to the Kaiser's founding of Germany in 1871 which is a Kleindeutsch. Bavaria, which is similar to Austria culturally and linguistically, was annexed despite its Catholic majority and remember, the Second Reich was quite anti-Catholic even for its time. What is a POD no later than Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo that can be used to get a Grossdeutsch???
No later? Sure you do not mean no earlier? Basically you need to split Hungary away from Austria.
 
What sort of action?

Prussia has no colonies for the RN to attack, so beyond bombarding a few coastal forts, there's nothing much Britain can do even if it wants to. So if France goes to war it will essentially have to fight alone.

Incidentally, exactly when is the Greater Germany supposed to be set up? If it's in 1871, then France is flat on her back and can do nothing. If it's 1848, then the enlarged Germany has a population of about 45 million, against 36 million for France, so that she is stronger, but not overwhelmingly so. Would GB see this as a major threat to the balance of power?
Yes, I think this will inevitably throw the balance out of whack. And it'll have to be military action, just like Marlborough against Louis XIV and Wellington against Napoleon and the expeditionary forces in 1914 and 1939. It's not in Britain's best interests to have a dominant power in Europe. And Germany with an annexed Austria, and Slav and Hungarian client states is arguably far stronger than Germany with an Austro-Hungarian ally.
 
To be clear, the Prussians deposethe Habsburgs and place it within their own country, with each duchy and county going under the Prussian King directly? I do not see that as being seen as very desirable for anyone. The Austrians would hate it, the small German states would fear it, the South Germans would sign up for an alliance with anyone to prevent inevitable invasion (Baden and Wurtenburg surrounded a small area that the Prussian Royal family got their name from, while a third of Bavarian, up in the north, was owned by the Prussian royals long in the past.), though if the Prussians quickly move to make this be like in Italy (the Savoys deposed all the other monarchs and and republics before annexing them all into the Kingdom of Sardinia for a few years before changing it to Italy), though to do this they may need to do a similar move of capitals. Erfurt or Frankfurt? Perhaps not the best places, but something must be done for the King of Germany to get wide spread internal recognition.
 
Top