AHC: have powerful, long-lasting Phoenician/Greek colonies outside of the Mediterranean
- Thread starter SpaceRome
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Strictly speaking the challenge is met by the existence of Cadiz, which was founded by Phoenicians in 1104 BC and remained Phoenician (and then Carthaginian) until conquered by the Romans in 206BC so definitely meets the long lasting criterion at least. I f you want something further afield however you might get one in Cornwall if Phoenician merchants follow the tin trade to its source and decide establishing a colony would help them to both monopolise the trade and give them a secure place to overwinter and repair ships for the long voyage back. how long it would last and how powerful it would be is a different question of course.
I was wondering if the Carthaginian had in search of gold, ivory, pepper and slaves gone to coastal West Africa. There they could have established have established colonies safe from Rome.
http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=langjohn&book=golden&story=carthaginians
http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=langjohn&book=golden&story=carthaginians
The main obstacle you'll met is that Punic or Greek colonies were seen as trade establishments that while interacted with their respective hinterland, didn't really went into the idea controlling it or even exercing a political influence there. Some Greek colonies had little to no chorè to speak of (for instance, Rhode or Agathè) and when there was one it was generally significantly limited (exception made of Sicily).
Hinterland outposts existed, but it was generally semi-hellenized, semi-indigenous settlements that weren't firmly under Greek control (and, in the case of Massalia, were quickly taken over by neighboring confederated peoples).
In order to get hinterland colonial settlements, I think it implies how to get a string of firmly controlled establishments an not just a set of spheres of influences over semi-hellenized natives; which would really be a departure from the general tendency of colonies in western Med or in Black Sea. It's not impossible, but would require specific conditions limiting a bit the geographical horizon like it happened in Sicily.
Albert.Nik
Banned
Phoenicians weren't actually empire material for such settler colonies. They were a small race/peoples mostly trading and such. They established colonies across the North African coast mostly not far from Lebanon. Mostly were small outposts,settlements and trading posts. Greeks on the other hand were a very huge and a dominant race. Greeks did establish several settlements in the East. But mostly they were later conquered by the Scythians and other Central Asian peoples. So Greeks could do it. Phoenicians were not that big.
Albert.Nik
Banned
With smaller butterflies,you could easily have a Greek East(Afghanistan,Central Asia and large parts of North India) with huge number of Greek settlers settling in colonies. It would be an earlier version of European coloniaization of Americas and Australia if had succeeded. But after a few generations,you would not have Greeks but rather mixed with Scythians,Kushans,Iranians,Sogdians,Indo-Aryans,Anatolians,Caucasians,Levantines,etc. Just like how a few generations ago,within the White Americans,there were pure British Americans,German Americans,Dutch Americans,Irish Americans,etc and today most have admixtures and mixtures,the Greek East would also be the same. They would still be White though though not fully Greek but rather the above mentioned mixtures would exist. Just an earlier version of USA but Greek speaking instead of English.
Albert.Nik
Banned
But however,putting Greeks and Phoenicians in the same list is like putting UK/France/USA/Germany and some obscure small sized non superpower of today in the same list. It just doesn't both go in one basket. Greeks had extensive colonies outside the Mediterranean as well but they were mostly conquered by invaders.
carthage is a small colony, apparently.
where were these colonies? the closest thing to 'colonies in the east' I can recall is the bosphoran kingdom, which is both not in the east and not a grand, powerful colony as you're describing (in other words, it is no Carthage)
Do you mean the various diadochi kingdoms? the ones that were based on existing infrastructure? because I'm not sure these can be considered colonies just as the Ostrogoth kingdom can't be considered a german colony in italy.
comparisons between anciant colonies and modern ones are a bit of a stretch, I find. also, why would their whiteness matter? its not like the ancient greeks cared at all about some idea of racial purity which was invented thousands of years after them.
Albert.Nik
Banned
Bactria,Central Asia,North India/Pakistan/Punjab did have some Greek settlements of the Indo-Greeks which continued even during Kushans. They became sparse after Gupta's disappearing completely. Carthage was just one. But really,compare Carthage to the size of all Hellenistic empires or even Greece of that era itself and all the cities!!
They wouldn't care about racial purity like Confederates or One drop rule or like that. They are mostly pseudoscience. But Greeks would still care about how they would like to flourish in the East. They would like to survive as Greeks still.
They wouldn't care about racial purity like Confederates or One drop rule or like that. They are mostly pseudoscience. But Greeks would still care about how they would like to flourish in the East. They would like to survive as Greeks still.
Alexander founded cities in Baktria and the east in general that became significant settlements. These cities were explicitly built along Greek city plans and supposedly involved extensive Greek settlement. In Persia the co-opting of Persian culture always meant that the Hellenistic influence would eventually wane; the far eastern Greek states were IMO much more “Greek” in a lasting way.
Carthago Novior delenda esse!
(Since Cartago Nova was in Spain.)
Albert.Nik
Banned
You may also want to consider that Greeks are probably the most advanced people at that time. Had they inched towards little more,we might have been discussing this in a Dyson sphere or something by now and Alpha centuri settler ships with letters in Greek would be departing and arriving. Greeks were mammoth. Comparing Phoenicians to somebody that big wouldn't be that meaningful comparison.
Albert.Nik
Banned
But see how long they survived as Hellenistic empires in India(Graeco-Bactrian/Indo-Greek),Persia(Seleucids) and Egypt(Ptolemaic)? And their legacy in later Roman Empires and the Byzantine Empire and ultimately the Islamic Golden age? The Persians can be credited but Greek legacy is more.Except the Persians were bigger, more powerful, and more long-lasting than them...
Yeah.... Dyson sphere might be a little bit of a stretch don't you think?
Albert.Nik
Banned
Had an highly effective Scientific revolution happened 2000+ years ago to which they were close to,we might have been as advanced as that.