AHC: have powerful, long-lasting Phoenician/Greek colonies outside of the Mediterranean

There is some evidence that the Phoenicians / Carthaginians got as far as Ireland. Ireland managed to stay independent from Roman Empire, when Rome collapsed they were powerful enough to launch some raids on post-Roman Britian.

Even if the Romans take control of a Phonecian or Greek colony in the British Isles its possible this entity could survive imperial Rome. The eastern empire remained 'Greek' after several centuries of Roman rule. A Greek Cornwall, or S Ireland could remain Greek post 500 AD, at least until diluted by assorted other Frisian, Saxon, Norse, & Norman invasions
 
How do we in a feasible way get a colony founded in Britain or Ireland

Do we need a colony as such, what about if the local elite joins into Greek or Phonecian and slowly adapt into this culture?

Ireland has some materials that would attract Greek and Phonecians traders copper, lead, alluvial gold and silver. If these can be made available in sufficient quantity, such a culture is possible.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
I don't know if Phoenicians would want colonies in that North. Phoenicians were mostly trading peoples unlike Greeks who were trading as well as empire building people.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Even if the Romans take control of a Phonecian or Greek colony in the British Isles its possible this entity could survive imperial Rome. The eastern empire remained 'Greek' after several centuries of Roman rule. A Greek Cornwall, or S Ireland could remain Greek post 500 AD, at least until diluted by assorted other Frisian, Saxon, Norse, & Norman invasions

If we have Greeks in Ireland, wouldn't the town be near Dublin. Dublin is a bowl where the land rapidly rises from the sea and then has a big interior region with a river flowing past Dublin. Dublin would be the logical place for a trading post. The Greeks would not need to control the interior, just control the one easy access point.

And speaking of Greeks, a lot of ancient Greece lived on fish from the Black Sea. I could actually see some pretty big Greek fishing villages up and down the coast of the British Isles if we assume Cornwall is controlled by the Greeks and Dublin is a good size town.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Assuming Cornish Tin is important where would the Greek settlements/ports utilizing that trade be?

There ships tended to hug the coast and try to find a port each night. So we should have a whole string of small towns above ports down the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Spanish coast.
 
Assuming Cornish Tin is important where would the Greek settlements/ports utilizing that trade be?

The Phoenicians would get there first, but either way probably the best place for an early colony would be the site of OTL Falmouth - the site of Pendennis Castle would make for a good acropolis and being at the end of a narrow peninsula it would be easily defensible from land and the Carrick Roads would provide a sheltered harbour more than big enough for any conceivable needs.

Phoenicians specifically might prefer St Michael's Mount down the coast towards Falmouth - a small circular island within shouting distance of the shore may remind the more homesick ones of Tyre - but I suspect that would have problems with water supply. Falmouth would definitely be the best bet.
 
How well could their ships have handled the Atlantic? Somehow either stumbles across the Azores or the Canaries. Just how early were either group settled?
 
How well could their ships have handled the Atlantic? Somehow either stumbles across the Azores or the Canaries. Just how early were either group settled?

Yes and no. The ships of the era were adapted for the Atlantic, but there was a lot of room for improvement. The more demand for the metals for Ireland and Britain the more incentive to build better and larger ships.

The Canaries have the first documented exploration and settlement in Roman times, tho some evidence exists for earlier inhabitants. The Phonecians may have know the islands.

The Azores have some vague circumstantial documentation from classical times, but definitive records start in the early 15th Century with the Portuguese. Ditto for Maderia, which received its first Portuguse settlement circa 1422.
 
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Notice I didn't say The New World. Although I suspect that there were Greeks, Phoenecians, Africans, Arabs and others who somehow got blown across in storms and getting stuck in the trade winds. Not that they had much effect on Native People's. Plus by and large they never got home.
 
There ships tended to hug the coast and try to find a port each night. So we should have a whole string of small towns above ports down the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Spanish coast.

Looking at google maps,
https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/...24e714a0275!2m2!1d10.1815316!2d36.8064948!3e0

That is approx 3000 nautical miles.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Journals/TAPA/82/Speed_under_Sail_of_Ancient_Ships*.html

These ships are doing about 111 to 138 nautical miles a day at a good rate say 120, so we are looking at a 25-day voyage which is a long trip in those days. They will need to have quite a few colonies in between to create a colony in Ireland.
 
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BlondieBC

Banned
Looking at google maps,
https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/...24e714a0275!2m2!1d10.1815316!2d36.8064948!3e0

That is approx 3000 nautical miles.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Journals/TAPA/82/Speed_under_Sail_of_Ancient_Ships*.html

These ships are doing about 111 to 138 nautical miles a day at a good rate say 120, so we are looking at a 25-day voyage which is a long trip in those days. They will need to have quite a few colonies in between to create a colony in Ireland.

Sounds right. Look at distance of trading settlements in Med Sea basin.

Also important to note that the Greeks often did not conquer into the interior, so they may just be look for a place to have a city of a few thousand with enough land to feed the city.
 
On one of the uprights of Stonehenge is a quite good depiction of a Minoan dagger. If authentic, that would place eastern Mediterranean contact with the British isles as far back as 1200-1400 BC. Of course, that doesn't mean that Minoans actually reached that far. Extensive trade routes existed in Europe back in the Neolithic. A bronze knife would have been a gift fit for a king and could have been passed trader to trader all the way to Wiltshire even back in those days. Still, it is fascinating to think of some unknown Odysseus visiting the great temple of Stonehenge and dickering with the natives.
 
where could this be accomplished, and how could it be? what would be the effect of long lasting mediterrenean colonies on, for example, the northern coast of spain or even the baltic? would river colonies be established on the rhine and elbe, perhaps?
A Greek Hellenic presence in Spain and Northern Africa would be interesting.
 
Sounds right. Look at distance of trading settlements in Med Sea basin.

Also important to note that the Greeks often did not conquer into the interior, so they may just be look for a place to have a city of a few thousand with enough land to feed the city.



A Greek Hellenic presence in Spain and Northern Africa would be interesting.

It would be required as a significant Greek settlement in Ireland to be viable would need access to the Mediterranean which ideally is Gibraltar or a land route through Spain, this was a region under strong Phoenician influence but easily bottled up whoever dominated this area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colon...enician_Colonies_in_The_Iberian_Peninsula.png

I suspect partly because of this there is little there on the West coast of France.
 
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