AHC: Have Poland and the Baltics be a part of the HRE

Your challenge is to have the land of the modern-day countries of Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia be a part of the Holy Roman Empire.

With a POD after 1200 AD, how is this possible?
 
I think you will need an earlier POD.

Lucky dynastic matches were no longer enough to have an outer kingdom become part of the HRE. The HRE by itself had become too balkanized and the emperor too weakened to be able to integrate into the HRE a new kingdom the way it did for Lotharingia, Italy and Burgundy.

Just consider the fact that Hungary, although run for centuries by dynasties that held the imperial crown (Luxemburgs and Habsburgs) never became part of the HRE.

The point is that, by that time, the identity of these kingdoms (not to say national identities but it indeed was nascent national identities) had already become strong enough so that they were able to impose an independant solution of their own. That's why Poland demanded an union with the second daughter of king Louis I (instead of his elder daughter who was his legitimate heir and finally inherited but Hungary) chose an Union with Lithuania.

And if you start before 1200, you will need the HRE. Historically, the HRE did expand at the expense of Poland and progressively germanize lands populated by poles, noticeably Silesia.
But then, as the imperial power weakened, it was no longer able to project so much power. It made the choice of Italy instead of the East.

Changing this and having the HRE focus on keeping on expanding eastward instead of wasting its power and resources in Italy would be a way to achieve it.
 
Hmmm... Perhaps Polish-Bohemian union under Premislids survives - let's say Wenceslaus III is not murdered and he manages to keep Polish crown. He and his successors works hard to integrate Poland into their kingdom and since Bohemia is a part of the HRE, welll... Problem is Poles were rather unhappy with such an idea and Bohemian rule in Poland after some time under Wenceslaus II became quite unpopular.
About Baltic States... More successful Teutonic Order which in time becomes part of the HRE? Question is I doubt the Order itself would be interested.
 
Hmmm... Perhaps Polish-Bohemian union under Premislids survives - let's say Wenceslaus III is not murdered and he manages to keep Polish crown. He and his successors works hard to integrate Poland into their kingdom and since Bohemia is a part of the HRE, welll... Problem is Poles were rather unhappy with such an idea and Bohemian rule in Poland after some time under Wenceslaus II became quite unpopular.
About Baltic States... More successful Teutonic Order which in time becomes part of the HRE? Question is I doubt the Order itself would be interested.



What about having Wenceslaus II surviving and siring a son with Richeza Elisabeth, that son would inherit Poland and Wenceslaus III is forced to focus on Hungary.
 
This would just lead to a personal union. But this is not enough to have Poland become part of the HRE. Bohemia was part of the HRE because it was conquered by the HRE. It as inside the HRE that Bohemia became a kingdom. Poland and Hungary were not conquered and became kingdoms when independant.
 
And if Poland is incorporated into Bohemia or if a new kingdom is created - Bohemia-Poland? Would it still be a part of HRE?
 
This would just lead to a personal union. But this is not enough to have Poland become part of the HRE. Bohemia was part of the HRE because it was conquered by the HRE. It as inside the HRE that Bohemia became a kingdom. Poland and Hungary were not conquered and became kingdoms when independant.

And if Poland is incorporated into Bohemia or if a new kingdom is created - Bohemia-Poland? Would it still be a part of HRE?

I think a Premyslid Poland under the son of Elisabeth Richeza and Wenceslaus II is a better Scenario..but it would remain under the thumb of Bohemia-Hungary and neither Silesia and Mazovia is lost and the border remains at Oder-Neisse.
 
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