AHC: Have Napoleonic France survive to at least 1900

In fact, the most ardent revolutionist were against the declaration of war.

I'm sorry but I don't buy that. Maybe some of them but most of them were for war.

I find it hard to believe that Louis XVI, who had an Austrian wife, declared war on Austria without the pressure of the revolutionaries. The king secretly supported counter-revolutionaries, asked Austria for help, and later tried to flee there. That doesn't sound like he wanted to declare war Austria. He was pushed into it by the revolutionaries.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
The massacre at Vendée happened after France and Britain went to war with Britain supporting the counter-revolutionaries of the Vendée. That's what I read. Could you tell me which book you were reading?

You're correct that the massacre itself took place post-declaration; however, the revolt (let's be clear, here, it wasn't just a counter-revolution but a revolt in reaction to the Levee en masse and to earlier anticlerical laws - the counter-revolutionarism was an addition to a peasant's revolt) had been brewing for a while.
I'll have to check at some later point (obviously as soon as I've got the time and access...) what the mentioned "waiting too late" was in reference to, though, since the book is strictly chronological in order.

The book, BTW, is "The War of Wars". Good read, though also so long I'm not even at where Nelson died.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I'm sorry but I don't buy that. Maybe some of them but most of them were for war.

I find it hard to believe that Louis XVI, who had an Austrian wife, declared war on Austria without the pressure of the revolutionaries. The king secretly supported counter-revolutionaries, asked Austria for help, and later tried to flee there. That doesn't sound like he wanted to declare war Austria. He was pushed into it by the revolutionaries.

Okay, so the revolutionaries pushed Louis XVI into war, but at the same time France was attacked... I think?
 
The French wanted him so badly he needed a brutal police intelligence/suppression system and was constantly on guard against being deposed.

Nothing in life is unanimous. Sure, there were a vocal and violent minority of Frenchmen who hated Napoleon but the majority of them loved him. These were charged times and France was being torn apart by internal and external pressures requiring strong measures. Just look at how effortlessly Napoleon returned to power in France after Elba, as proof that France really wanted him.
 
This was the man who reinstated slavery in Saint-Domingue (Haiti).

He was not perfect but he was better than all the other European despots of his time. Even in the USA, many of the American revolutionists kept slaves too. He also had a misogynistic attitude towards women, but he implemented many of the Revolutionary ideals, such as abolition of feudalism, emancipation of religions, secularization of the state, and so on.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
He was not perfect but he was better than all the other European despots of his time. Even in the USA, many of the American revolutionists kept slaves too. He also had a misogynistic attitude towards women, but he implemented many of the Revolutionary ideals, such as abolition of feudalism, emancipation of religions, secularization of the state, and so on.
And at the same time, while also fighting an all-consuming two-decade-long war, the British Empire basically shut down the slave trade in their spare time.
I'm by no means convinced he was "better", given he overthrew a democratic government - whereas, by contrast, most of the other European rulers actually weren't despots. They had - formal or informal - checks and balances of some sort, and Britain and the Netherlands are two of the flagship examples of this. The Netherlands (the United Provinces) was basically a democracy, as was the UK at this point in time.

Incidentally, do you know how Napoleon got the votes he did for his various confirmations as e.g. Emperor? Death threats. (One colonel is recorded as saying that anyone could think what they wanted, but the first person to vote against Napoleon becoming Emperor would be... I think it was "shot", though I could be mistaken.)
 
The French wanted him so badly he needed a brutal police intelligence/suppression system and was constantly on guard against being deposed.

You seems to forget that the Police of Fouche wasn't as efficient as the Stasi or the KGB. You should moderate your views of what a XIXth century police can do. In fact, the Police Nationale don't even exist in 1800 and police role was the responsability of various town police and of the Garde Nationale and the Gendarmerie.

And it seems that at least the terrorist attack of the Sainte Nicaise street can be a argument that a little police was a bad thing, when the Royalists were ready to kill 22 people and wounded a hundred only to kill Napoleon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_of_the_Rue_Saint-Nicaise


I'm sorry but I don't buy that. Maybe some of them but most of them were for war.

I find it hard to believe that Louis XVI, who had an Austrian wife, declared war on Austria without the pressure of the revolutionaries. The king secretly supported counter-revolutionaries, asked Austria for help, and later tried to flee there. That doesn't sound like he wanted to declare war Austria. He was pushed into it by the revolutionaries.

There was severals factions in the National Assembly.

The Girondins faction was in favor of the war.

Roberpierre for exemple was first for the war, then he became a strong opponent to the war calling it a plan of Louis XVI and the war being a risk to emerge a Julius Cesar or a Cromwell personality.

For the position of the King, it is difficult to know if he thought war and defeat could be a good way to restaure his power in France, or that he had no others choice that to accept and sign the war bill because his political position was very low after the Varennes escape.


This is the man who reinstated slavery in Saint-Domingue (Haiti).

You said it twice...

Yes, and he reinstated slavery because as a man born in 1769 in Corsica (where the national flag is a decapitated head of a Maure), he was probably very racist and a black man for him was only seen as a potential slave.

Probably his views of the Antillan and Caraibean situation was inspired by his wife who came from a wealthy Creole family and because on Saint Domingue, the former slaves and the former masters killed each others in a most cruel civil war.
 
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Intosh688985 said:
You said it twice... My computer is not that efficient. I was not sure my first answer was posted.

Yes, and he reinstated slavery because as a man born in 1769 in Corsica (where the national flag is a decapitated head of a Maure), he was probably very racist and a black man for him was only seen as a potential slave.

Probably his views of the Antillan and Caraibean situation was inspired by his wife who came from a wealthy Creole family and because on Saint Domingue, the former slaves and the former masters killed each others in a most cruel civil war. While it may have been the best thing he could have done at that point(debatable) it still doesn't make all of his ideals revolutionary.

Answers in bold.
 
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