AHC: Have McCarthy Win Nomination or Election in '68

Stolengood

Banned
Just as it says on the tin; McCarthy seemed to have a lot of momentum at the start of 1968, but RFK and Humphrey joining the race quickly crushed his chances. How do you think (plausibly, folks) he could win either the nomination or both the nomination and the Presidency?

...and what happens after? That's your call. Begin! ;)
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I've asked this so many times that it makes my fingers bleed.

Short answer: Not nearly enough people in the Party liked Gene enough to get him the nom. It was Humphrey all the way.
 
In a project I am working on (and which I constantly forget about *SIGH*) I had Eugene McCarthy be nominated for the Vice Presidency by Lyndon Johnson. He quickly get ostracized by the President given among other things, his virulent opposition to the Vietnam War, becoming the principal leader of the Anti-War movement. Kennedy jumps in, but the voters are not as receptive of him as in OTL, and he finds himself defeated in every primary other than Nebraska, where he narrowly wins. Senator Henry Jackson, who was present in California to discuss a possible endorsement and served as LBJ's replacement, is shot and killed by Sirhain Sirhain as he pushes Kennedy out of the way; Kennedy himself lives, but suffers from consistent memory loss and occasionally slurred speech. Deciding to throw their support to Nelson Rockefeller, LBJ and other Democratic Party Big-Wigs essentially throw the convention to McCarthy.

He promptly gets destroyed in the election, carrying two states.

 
...so, he can never win, then? In any timeline? :(
I never say anything is impossible, but rather it is a matter of getting people to believe it.

If LBJ were to suffer a heart attack (possible), and Eugene McCarthy became the sitting president in January 1968, I believe then he could win.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Perhaps you could have something knock Kennedy out, and keep it McCarthy vs. LBJ?
It's never a question of Kennedy; he just stole a lot of McCarthy's base, which wasn't big enough to do much but make noise. The question is getting the Bosses (especially Daley) to go with Gene over Humphrey, which ain't gonna happen.
 

Stolengood

Banned
It's never a question of Kennedy; he just stole a lot of McCarthy's base, which wasn't big enough to do much but make noise. The question is getting the Bosses (especially Daley) to go with Gene over Humphrey, which ain't gonna happen.
...unless Humphrey dies. Argh. :(
 
...unless Humphrey dies. Argh. :(
Still not happening.

The only way is if LBJ picks McCarthy as his VP, but if that happens LBJ is running again in 1968 because no one is going to stand up to him properly in New Hampshire. LBJ has to die in office with VP McCarthy.
 

Stolengood

Banned
McCarthy's grassroots campaign just can't get enough steam, do you think, or is it because Daley's holding the reigns, pretty much?
 
Just as it says on the tin; McCarthy seemed to have a lot of momentum at the start of 1968, but RFK and Humphrey joining the race quickly crushed his chances. How do you think (plausibly, folks) he could win either the nomination or both the nomination and the Presidency?

...and what happens after? That's your call. Begin! ;)
Technically, you didn't say Eugene.... If Joe lived longer and somehow rehabilitated his career? That would be even tougher, though.
 
When LBJ dropped out in '68 it was only half of a change in his presidency. The other half was to move towards negotiating the end of the War.

What if LJB hadn't dropped out and instead fully embraced ending the war, praising McCarthy and appointing him as the lead negotiator in Paris. McCarthy, having achieved his goal in running, drops out of the race. Kennedy never enters. Humphrey doesn't enter either of course.

Then in June LBJ has a heart attack and drops out then. McCarthy has already become a spokesman for the new anti-war LBJ and has lots of prestige, in both the young student left side of the party and the loyal to the President side. Kennedy has no ground game and so doesn't enter, especially when McCarthy's people let his people know he has the VP if he wants it or Secretary of State.

Humphrey is ready to jump in when LBJ, weak physically but strong in personality, calls him in, reads him the riot act, explains that a contested convention this late in the game will give Nixon the election and explain if he enters he will have LBJ have to endorse McCarthy over him, which will be bad for him. Humphrey does as LBJ says.

There is no assassination of RFK. There are no riots in Chicago. The Convention is a love-fest. RFK is VP. Humphrey is told that a seat on SCOTUS is likely. He campaigns vigorously for McCarthy.

Nixon's "secret plan" is exposed as the treason it really was when an LBJ more committed to ending the war in TTL than in OTL releases the information on Nixon's shenanigans with Thieu on delaying the peace talks.

McCarthy wins the election. In December a peace treaty is signed in Paris.

In 1968 and 1969 the deep south going to Wallace is seen as keeping the Democratic win from being a landslide. By 1977 and two more elections in which it becomes clear the deep south had been lost to the Democrats after 1964, the common wisdom becomes that Wallace taking the deep south kept Nixon from winning and is why McCarthy won.

Nixon is arrested in December of 1968 by LBJ's Justice Department. His trial is all the news in 1969. He is found guilty of treason and is sentenced to life in prison. He is especially despised by Vietnam Vets who believe if he hadn't been exposed that the war would have continued for years and they might have died.

LBJ had attempted to nominate Abe Fortas for Chief Justice of the SCOTUS in 1986 when Warren announced his retirement, but had been stopped by a filibuster. In 1969 McCarthy nominated Humphrey who was easily confirmed and held the office for 9 years until his death in 1978.

Butterflies:

1) Since there's no enemies list there's no attempt to kick John Lennon out of the country. His life is altered enough that he isn't assassinated in 1980. In 1985 the Beatles reunited to perform one short set during Live Aid. They only performed four songs, all solo material from their post-Beatles career: Imagine, Maybe I'm Amazed, It Don't Come Easy and My Sweet Lord. In 1995 when George needs money and the Anthology is made, all four Beatles cooperate to release new material.

2) Since the war was over there was no invasion of Cambodia, no student response, no shootings at Kent State. There also had been no riots in Chicago in 1968 and so no trial of the Chicago Seven. The Hippy counter culture and its radical activist sibling didn't turn inward and didn't retreat to communes and food co-ops. On the other hand a small segment of it didn't turn radically violent either. Instead Flower Power continued to be a part of the American cultural scene with it's main political focus being anti-nuclear weapons and environmentalism.

3) With his brother alive and a powerful Vice President, Teddy Kennedy chose to retreat from public life after the Chappaquiddick accident instead of his choice in OTL to remain due to being the heir of the legacy.

4) There is no drug war. Nixon's drug law that federalized all drugs in certain schedules, which were decided by administration instead of legislation, never happened. Marijuana legalization was entirely a state issue and by 1979 five states had fully legalized it. By 1986 thirty-three states had. In 2012 it only remains illegal in Mississippi, Utah and Kansas.
 
When LBJ dropped out in '68 it was only half of a change in his presidency. The other half was to move towards negotiating the end of the War.

What if LJB hadn't dropped out and instead fully embraced ending the war, praising McCarthy and appointing him as the lead negotiator in Paris. McCarthy, having achieved his goal in running, drops out of the race. Kennedy never enters. Humphrey doesn't enter either of course.

Then in June LBJ has a heart attack and drops out then. McCarthy has already become a spokesman for the new anti-war LBJ and has lots of prestige, in both the young student left side of the party and the loyal to the President side. Kennedy has no ground game and so doesn't enter, especially when McCarthy's people let his people know he has the VP if he wants it or Secretary of State.

Humphrey is ready to jump in when LBJ, weak physically but strong in personality, calls him in, reads him the riot act, explains that a contested convention this late in the game will give Nixon the election and explain if he enters he will have LBJ have to endorse McCarthy over him, which will be bad for him. Humphrey does as LBJ says.

There is no assassination of RFK. There are no riots in Chicago. The Convention is a love-fest. RFK is VP. Humphrey is told that a seat on SCOTUS is likely. He campaigns vigorously for McCarthy.

Nixon's "secret plan" is exposed as the treason it really was when an LBJ more committed to ending the war in TTL than in OTL releases the information on Nixon's shenanigans with Thieu on delaying the peace talks.

McCarthy wins the election. In December a peace treaty is signed in Paris.

In 1968 and 1969 the deep south going to Wallace is seen as keeping the Democratic win from being a landslide. By 1977 and two more elections in which it becomes clear the deep south had been lost to the Democrats after 1964, the common wisdom becomes that Wallace taking the deep south kept Nixon from winning and is why McCarthy won.

Nixon is arrested in December of 1968 by LBJ's Justice Department. His trial is all the news in 1969. He is found guilty of treason and is sentenced to life in prison. He is especially despised by Vietnam Vets who believe if he hadn't been exposed that the war would have continued for years and they might have died.

LBJ had attempted to nominate Abe Fortas for Chief Justice of the SCOTUS in 1986 when Warren announced his retirement, but had been stopped by a filibuster. In 1969 McCarthy nominated Humphrey who was easily confirmed and held the office for 9 years until his death in 1978.

Butterflies:

1) Since there's no enemies list there's no attempt to kick John Lennon out of the country. His life is altered enough that he isn't assassinated in 1980. In 1985 the Beatles reunited to perform one short set during Live Aid. They only performed four songs, all solo material from their post-Beatles career: Imagine, Maybe I'm Amazed, It Don't Come Easy and My Sweet Lord. In 1995 when George needs money and the Anthology is made, all four Beatles cooperate to release new material.

2) Since the war was over there was no invasion of Cambodia, no student response, no shootings at Kent State. There also had been no riots in Chicago in 1968 and so no trial of the Chicago Seven. The Hippy counter culture and its radical activist sibling didn't turn inward and didn't retreat to communes and food co-ops. On the other hand a small segment of it didn't turn radically violent either. Instead Flower Power continued to be a part of the American cultural scene with it's main political focus being anti-nuclear weapons and environmentalism.

3) With his brother alive and a powerful Vice President, Teddy Kennedy chose to retreat from public life after the Chappaquiddick accident instead of his choice in OTL to remain due to being the heir of the legacy.

4) There is no drug war. Nixon's drug law that federalized all drugs in certain schedules, which were decided by administration instead of legislation, never happened. Marijuana legalization was entirely a state issue and by 1979 five states had fully legalized it. By 1986 thirty-three states had. In 2012 it only remains illegal in Mississippi, Utah and Kansas.

Pretty cool scenario, Asharella. :D
 

Flubber

Banned
What if LJB hadn't dropped out and instead fully embraced ending the war, praising McCarthy and appointing him as the lead negotiator in Paris.


So LBJ has a stroke or massive head injury which makes him do these things? That is, before the heart attack which causes him to drop out of the race?

Seriously, you know next to nothing about Lyndon Baines Johnson if you think he would do any of the things you have him doing in your proposal. In fact, if LBJ had woke one morning and began acting as you suggested he should, the first thing he'd be asked before being popped in a psychiatric hospital would be "Who are you and what did you do with LBJ?"

We're talking about the man who reversed JFK's withdrawal order only 4 days after taking office and who knowingly and repeatedly lied to Congress and the public regarding the 8/4/64 Gulf of Tonkin "incident" in order to get the authority to escalate the war. The only way LBJ would come out against the Vietnam War is if Jesus Christ paid a personnel visit to the Oval Office and kicked him in the ass.

As for legalized pot, Nixon tried for treason, a Beatles reunion, and the rest of it, let's pretend it never happened, okay?
 
So LBJ has a stroke or massive head injury which makes him do these things? That is, before the heart attack which causes him to drop out of the race?

Seriously, you know next to nothing about Lyndon Baines Johnson if you think he would do any of the things you have him doing in your proposal. In fact, if LBJ had woke one morning and began acting as you suggested he should, the first thing he'd be asked before being popped in a psychiatric hospital would be "Who are you and what did you do with LBJ?"

We're talking about the man who reversed JFK's withdrawal order only 4 days after taking office and who knowingly and repeatedly lied to Congress and the public regarding the 8/4/64 Gulf of Tonkin "incident" in order to get the authority to escalate the war. The only way LBJ would come out against the Vietnam War is if Jesus Christ paid a personnel visit to the Oval Office and kicked him in the ass.

As for legalized pot, Nixon tried for treason, a Beatles reunion, and the rest of it, let's pretend it never happened, okay?

Actually I know a lot about LBJ since I did a thesis on him.

LBJ hated the war. He felt as bad about it as the protestors in the street. He didn't think it was winnable at all. But he felt he had to wage it due to broader strategic issues in the cold war.

LBJ did change his view on the war in 1968, which is why he switched from fighting it to the peace talks and why he dropped out. He finally decided to go with his gut instead of his brain on it and that it was better to get out than continue to stalemate for America's larger strategic issues.

What my scenario is doing is having him at first still thinking it was best for him to remain president to do this and co-opting McCarthy, which was a very LBJ thing to do. He was a master manipulator and didn't do enemy lists like Nixon and holding grudges. If LBJ thought befriending and sponsoring a former foe was more likely to get him what he wanted than not doing so, he'd pull out all the stops. That former foe would be wined and dined at a Texas Barbeque. So it's not impossible that LBJ might have co-opted McCarthy.

Is it probable what I described could happen? No, of course not. But the challenge of the thread was finding some way for McCarthy to get the nomination. The only way I could see that happening was if the very improbable scenario of LBJ putting his weight behind it happened.

Nixon was a crook. He did commit treason. His actions weren't revealed and what I had vets feel in TTL would have happened if Nixon had gotten away with it, did happen in OTTL. Many more died in Vietnam because Nixon schemed to sabotage the Paris Peace Talks with Thieu so he could win the presidency.
 
Actually I know a lot about LBJ since I did a thesis on him.

LBJ hated the war. He felt as bad about it as the protestors in the street. He didn't think it was winnable at all. But he felt he had to wage it due to broader strategic issues in the cold war.

LBJ did change his view on the war in 1968, which is why he switched from fighting it to the peace talks and why he dropped out. He finally decided to go with his gut instead of his brain on it and that it was better to get out than continue to stalemate for America's larger strategic issues.

What my scenario is doing is having him at first still thinking it was best for him to remain president to do this and co-opting McCarthy, which was a very LBJ thing to do. He was a master manipulator and didn't do enemy lists like Nixon and holding grudges. If LBJ thought befriending and sponsoring a former foe was more likely to get him what he wanted than not doing so, he'd pull out all the stops. That former foe would be wined and dined at a Texas Barbeque. So it's not impossible that LBJ might have co-opted McCarthy.

Is it probable what I described could happen? No, of course not. But the challenge of the thread was finding some way for McCarthy to get the nomination. The only way I could see that happening was if the very improbable scenario of LBJ putting his weight behind it happened.

Nixon was a crook. He did commit treason. His actions weren't revealed and what I had vets feel in TTL would have happened if Nixon had gotten away with it, did happen in OTTL. Many more died in Vietnam because Nixon schemed to sabotage the Paris Peace Talks with Thieu so he could win the presidency.

That is what I'd call a good comeback.
 
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