AHC: Have Canada invade the US

If the ww1 era US manages to hold off Canada, do you think any European countries would try to assist it? I could see perhaps one of the smaller European countries trying to send supplies to the US which will be enraged at this point and would try to INVADE Canada...Only this time, they are gonna get the full industrial might of the USA...

The Royal Navy would probably dominate the North Atlantic shipping routes, even with unrestricted submarine warfare from the Germans. They'd take a lot of losses, but it wouldn't be difficult for the British to intercept any surface convoys headed for the East Coast.
 
I did, but I'd rather have an actual copy, with maps and all. apparently in the states, since they've been declassified, you cant print them out on the internet for 15 cents :eek:, but as I'm not in the US, I cant.
 
Tovarich:
"I actually think Canada stands a better chance of victory today.
They just need to squeeze Shatner back into his Starfleet uniform,...."

Now THAT's a stretch .... :)
 

Tovarich

Banned
Tovarich:
"I actually think Canada stands a better chance of victory today.
They just need to squeeze Shatner back into his Starfleet uniform,...."

Now THAT's a stretch .... :)

Heh, memory-alpha.org recently had a competition where you could win a supposed original Kirk shirt from TOS.
I took one look and thought "Arnold from Diff'rent Strokes would have trouble getting into that, nevermind Shatner!" and didn't bother entering.
 
In this scenario the Canadians have everything to lose and nothing to gain. What would they want? Land? Land filled with Americans who dislike their rulers and who have very easy access to guns.

The only Canadian plan to invade the US is one where they launch a pre-emptive strike in case America ever seemed ready to invade.
 
The only time I could see Canada having any reasons to go to the length of invading the US would be as a punitive expedition for the Fenian raids.

And even thats a stretch
 

Eurofed

Banned
The Royal Navy would probably dominate the North Atlantic shipping routes, even with unrestricted submarine warfare from the Germans. They'd take a lot of losses, but it wouldn't be difficult for the British to intercept any surface convoys headed for the East Coast.

I concur that in a CP US WWI scenario, the RN would retain enough of a naval parity in the Atlantic to make the shipping of a CP or US expeditionary corps across it wholly unfeasible. But I cannot really see a serious British naval superiority in the Atlantic in this scenario. The RN would have to deal with the HSF, the USN, the German submarine warfare, and the US one: the Americans would be quite likely to look at the submarine efforts of their German allies and say "what a cool idea, let us do it too".
 
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I concur that in a CP US WWI scenario, the RN would retain enough of a naval parity in the Atlantic to make the shipping of a CP or US expeditionary corps across it wholly unfeasible. But I cannot really see a serious British naval superiority in the Atlantic in this scenario. The RN would have to deal with the HSF, the USN, the German submarine warfare, and the US one: the Americans would be quite likely to look at the submarine efforts of their German allies and say "what a cool idea, let us do it too".
Do you think the UK would be particularly very sore about losing one of its biggest colonies? Also, how would this affect WW2? Since Canada would belong to the US then, would Australia and New Zealand have a bigger role then?
 
With a POD like my NZ/Australia challenge, which is either before WW1 or WW2, somehow have Canada attack the US. Perhaps, SOMEHOW the US becomes a Central Power in this, and so Canada being the closest colony to the US, Britain orders it to attack the US?

PS: Do you guys think Canada would get stomped if tried for SOME reason to attack the US now?
Ok, I can do a realistic mini-TL but there are some serious issues that must be worked out or this would be seriously ASB.

Why would America support Germany? America has closer ties with Britain and France than Germany and Austria-Hungary
Also, Britain and France were unofficially allies with America during World War 1 before official US involvement.

Maybe a Zimmerman-Note like offer from Germany to USA, and since that sounds least ASB-like, I will go from there.

May 1915:
Germany has lost all hope for a quick victory against France, Austria still has land occupied by the Russians in Galicia, and the Ottoman Empire faces two invasions simultaneously. Germany needed a new and powerful ally, and found it in isolationist America. On May 12, a handwritten note was delivered by submarine from Germany to Washington, DC hoping to convince the US that Britain was America's true enemy and that Britain could send spies and partisans through their porous northern border to attack Americans. This message is intercepted by the British Navy (who damaged and beached the sub), and the British were outraged. Accusations flew, and the Canadians thought that the US and Germans were ALREADY working together.

Britain gives the order for Canada to attack the United States, and that Royal Navy assistance would be provided. On May 20, the Canadian Army, pours across the northern border and invades the United States.
Canada's army consists of four army groups: the Pacific Army, the Western Army, the Central Army, and the Eastern Army. Their objectives are Seattle, Billings, Minneapolis, and Syracuse.

Bellingham Washington, , Havre Montana, International Falls Minnesota, and Buffalo New York are taken within days. Fort Lewis (Seattle/Tacoma) and Fort Drum (New York) send out soldiers as soon as the invasion begins. The US begins a defense in depth strategy, sacrificing Great Falls and Duluth so that the Canadians can meet an organized, well controlled defense. The Canadian Army is routed north of Seattle and Minneapolis and west of Rochester. The largest Canadian invasion force defeats the weakest US defense force, and Billings, Montana is also occupied.

However, the Canadian military strategists forgot one important detail; heavily armed civilians who did not want any foreign occupation and knew the land and how to use their guns. Canada's Western Army is stretched thin holding Billings, and after constant partisan attacks, they try to retreat to Canada. The Western Army is being withered down, and (with limited US military intervention), the Canadian Army, surrounded in Great Falls, surrenders to American guerrillas on June 2. They are kept in the city, and formally surrender to a nearby US Army general the next day.

On the Pacific coast, the Canadians attempt to dig trench systems around Everett and be supplied by the Canadian Pacific Navy, but they are flanked from the north by US defense units (really partisans with some Army units), and the US Pacific fleet engages in battle with the Canadian fleet in the Strait of Juan de Fuca on May 25, with both fleets heavily damaged, but the Canadians surrendering. The US Navy sails into Puget Sound and bombards the Canadian trenches without return fire (No heavy artillery was brought by any Canadian army, because they were trying to take land, then scorched-earth retreat their way back to Canada). After seeing that any hope for a rescue or breakout is gone, the Canadian Pacific Army surrenders on May 30.

Will continue to update soon!
 
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One problem there, you are relying way too much on guerrillas, who have a horrid track record against actual soldiers in a stand up fight, harassment fine, actual combat no.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Why would America support Germany? America is a DEMOCRACY, and World War 1 is mostly democracies ( - Russia) against monarchies, so that would not help the US ally with Germany.

For the Universe's sake, Germany and Austria-Hungary were liberal-conservative constitutional monarchies in 1914, just like Britain and Italy. For all the various reasons that WWI occurred and America got involved in it, an ideological divide simply didn't exist between the CP and the Entente, it was an imperialistic fistfight with no good guys and bad guys from top to bottom.
 
This would require a POD well before 1900, either to have Britain+Canada invade the US when it wasn't so formidable (pre-Civil War) or to have a much more powerful Canada and much weaker US in the 20th/21st century (e.g. have the war of 1812 go badly for the US, so that Western border runs around the 42nd parallel to the Pacific, then have the Union lose the Civil War).

edit -- Actually that'd make for a pretty interesting timeline, with 3 roughly equal majority Anglo countries in North America with deep historical antagonisms between them.
 
RamscoopRaider:

That may be true, but only for guerrillas overall. The American guerrillas are an untested force, and in America they have access to some nice guns (lever actions, shotguns, ACP), not to mention the Canadian army group that they are fighting against is pretty weak.

The Canadian Corps (that would have been sent to Europe OTL) could not have possibly had more than 100,000 men in its army, and there was not enough time (about a week) between the interception of the ATL Zimmerman Note and the invasion, not enough time for Britain to send sizable military units. Not to mention that this army was spread into 4 groups, the Pacific, Western, Central, and Eastern armies.

Even then, their group could have about 30000-35000 men, but they were weakened by their Pyrrhic victory against the American force at Bozeman and harassed by smaller American units from the Midwest sent there to push the Canadians back across the border. It was a mistake saying that there was no military support, and I will correct that. Thank you.

Eurofed:

I would not say that German and Austrian monarchies had 0 power, but I did not say that they were authoritarian. Either way, that is not even a detail in the TL, so I can remove that with no problem. Thank you.

Now to get back to work on the TL.
 
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In Minnesota, the Canadian Central Army (the smallest of the four)crosses the border near International Falls, taking the town on the first day. The first Canadian flag planted in the US by Canadian armies was hoisted up in "International" Falls. The Canadians continue their march southeast, taking Duluth almost unopposed on May 23. The US Army has decided to make its stand in Cambridge, Minnesota, directly north of Minneapolis and directly east of St Cloud. The two armies clash on May 27, and after two days of stalemate fighting, fresh US reinforcements from Fort Riley, they defeated the shattered Canadian Central Army and accepted their surrender. However, they realized that only the rear guard was surrendering, and the rest of the Canadian soldiers were practically destroying all of Minnesota in their possession. Scorched Earth had begun.

Will post the fate of the Eastern Army soon!
 
Military takeover is out of the question. Once Lt. Gen. Mandell gives the go-ahead, the task will be largely accomplished overnight. One morning, America will wake up pleasant.

bodysnatchers2.jpg
 
Why would Canada invade across such a large front, and why would it focus on taking so much useless empty territory?

Obviously any invasion attempt is suicide in the end, but if I had to make a good show around WW1 I'd have the Canadians fully mobilize and mass in southern Ontario and Quebec as if for transport to Europe. Then blitzkrieg nearly unopposed into the Great Lakes region and down the Eastern Seaboard, using in-place transportation infrastructure (railroads, commandeered cars, etc) wherever possible. Once the Canadian armies stop advancing (that is, once the US recovers from the shock and starts to organize a defence) begin a fighting retreat back to Canada, destroying everything in sight (with an emphasis on transportation and industrial infrastructure), and hope that British reinforcements arrive in force in time to blunt the US counter-attack.

The US is a much less formidable opponent with Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland, Boston, New York, Philadelphia, etc. in smoking ruins. And if the Americans easily take Western Canada in response it doesn't change the strategic picture much so long as the fighting-age men have been conscripted and moved east first.
 
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May be possible at some point in DoD if the U.S. begins to fall apart like I think it will someday in the near future(looking forward from '33 of course).
But IOTL? Probably not.
 
Only if America is very aggressive, taking the chance to take Canada at the outbreak of war. Defense Plan #1 is enacted and the Canadian army strikes out of Quebec towards Albany, the Canadian forces in the Maritimes would attempt to break down the coast of Maine and mount a surprise attack on Boston. The western assault on Seattle would occur. The first wave would be finished by attacks of Montana and Minnesota. The plan was to keep the Americans busy while the British sent reinforcements. The war goes back to Canadian border and becomes a stalemate.
 
Stewacide:

The Canadian Defense Scheme 1, created in 1921, says that the Canadians attack the US, grab as much land as they can, then scorched-earth retreat to Canada. I don't see why that wouldn't happen ATL, so I put in a larger front so that more US troops would be required to dislodge the Canadians.

Back to the TL:

In the East, the Canadian Eastern Army crosses the border at Buffalo, taking the city in minutes almost unopposed. The Canadians then march east, down the New York State Thruway, in an attempt to occupy Syracuse, and if possible, Albany or even New York City. Resistance by both partisans and scattered units of the US Army begin to wear at the invading Canadians, and they stop just south of Rochester for the night on May 22. The next day, they begin their attack of the city, which was defended by Army battalions from Fort Drum. Most of the Eastern Army is thrown against Rochester, and by the end of May 24, half of the city is taken, but the Canadians are surrounded. They attempt to break out to the west, but the ring holds. On May 26, the Eastern Army surrenders. The battalion left to defend Buffalo retreats across the Niagara River to defend against US retaliation.
 
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