AHC:Have baathism as a major ideology in the 3rd world

With a pod of 1947 have baathism became a major ideology in the 3rd world outside of arab nations .

obviously with arab nationalism swapped for whatever local group or groups

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba'athism

First_second_third_worlds_map.svg.png
 
Obviously, baathism isn't enough to prevent tyranny.

But does it actively lend itself to tyranny, or does that depend, say, more than 70% on the leaders at a particular point in time?
 
Obviously you can't have "true" Ba'athism outside of Arab areas (since a core tenant is Arab nationalism), but I could see it evolving into a pan-Muslim (*not* Islamic) movement in the greater Muslim world, with either non-Arab offshoots or copy-cats adopting the core tenants of the movement in the greater Muslim world, especially in the Sahel and East Africa.

Of course, that would require that the movement remain more committed to its original ideas and not fall into despotism like Iraq and Syria did after Ba'athist movements took them over. A "purer" Ba'athism has the ability to rally more people to its cause and could see other military leaders use it to justify taking power.

I don't see how it could really transfer to, say, Latin America or non-Islamic Africa or Asia but that's just my two cents.
 
I don't see how it could really transfer to, say, Latin America or non-Islamic Africa or Asia but that's just my two cents.
What if Ba'athism kind of hits upon the right mix of capitalism and socialism?

And if we really want to go high trajectory, a three-fold combo which also includes respecting, preserving, and encouraging major sectors of the informal, non-cash economy.
 
If Baathism became the ideology of the 3rd world, then Saddam Hussein and Bashar al-Assad will be seen as very significant figures in the third world, while still being detested by the West. Generally, it'd make sense if Idi Amin or Gaddafi were influenced by Baathism in this scenario.
 
What if Ba'athism kind of hits upon the right mix of capitalism and socialism?

And if we really want to go high trajectory, a three-fold combo which also includes respecting, preserving, and encouraging major sectors of the informal, non-cash economy.

My thing is I don't see how you could make it have broad appeal outside of the Arab cultural sphere (and I include the greater Islamic world because Islam started in Arabia). IMHO even disconnected from Islam, its still a Middle Eastern political ideology and while I can certainly see elements of it copied in a timeline where its more successful outside of the Arab and/or Muslim world, it won't as a "natural" evolution of the movement itself and its leaders and followers.

If Baathism became the ideology of the 3rd world, then Saddam Hussein and Bashar al-Assad will be seen as very significant figures in the third world, while still being detested by the West. Generally, it'd make sense if Idi Amin or Gaddafi were influenced by Baathism in this scenario.

Good point on Amin and Gaddafi; if they can succeed, hold on to power and increase the living standards of their subjects it could help snowball the movement.
 
Hmmm... Some of it's elements could potentially be adapted into a Latin American context...

But didn't Latin America already have its own native-born equivalents to Baathism, for example the secularist nationalism of the PRI in Mexico? Like the Baath, they also had an interventionist approach tp economic development that varied over time.

Maybe if anti-clericalism had remained a defining aspect of political identity into the 20th Century, we could have ended up with some sort of Secularist International(ie. a loosely affiliated alliance along the lines of the Socialist International), bringing together the Baath parties, the PRI in Mexico, Peronists in Argentina,, various liberal groupings in Europe, ACLU types in the USA etc. But they'd likely end up finding that there was more that divided them(eg. the Syrians being pro-Shiite and the Iraqis being pro-Sunni, just for starters) than what united them(ie. a negative attitude toward religion in government, and a vaguely defined commiment to state intervention in the economy).
 
I don't see how an explicitly Arab Nationalist ideology (it was one of the founding principles) could spread beyond the Arab world, I don't even see it getting far in the non-Arab Islamic world (other than parts of Africa with Arab influence), let alone non-Islamic nations.
 

RousseauX

Donor
With a pod of 1947 have baathism became a major ideology in the 3rd world outside of arab nations .

obviously with arab nationalism swapped for whatever local group or groups

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba'athism

View attachment 313680
Baathism was at its core about the idea of Arab Reinaissance: the idea that a vanguard can recover the glory of Arab history and go back to the 1200s or w/e when Arabic countries were at the height of their power

The thing is replace "Arab" with "Chinese" or "indian" and you get pretty much any nationalist movement during the cold war
 
@overoceans

. . . and a vaguely defined commiment to state intervention in the economy).
Yes, good point, it would need to be something more specific than this.

Maybe if at the time Ba'athism was being developed, Michel Aflaq and other leaders could point to a good half dozen examples of newly independent nations advancing themselves on GDP and standard of living.

Maybe if several of the leaders had gravitated to the case study method of understanding and teaching. That would have really emphasized that you've got to pick what's best for your particular circumstances.

And especially if we do something other than merely send those who are already elites to a single, prestigious national university.
 
Maybe Ba'athism inspires a wave of authoritarian, secular dictatorships.

Baathism was at its core about the idea of Arab Reinaissance: the idea that a vanguard can recover the glory of Arab history and go back to the 1200s or w/e when Arabic countries were at the height of their power

The thing is replace "Arab" with "Chinese" or "indian" and you get pretty much any nationalist movement during the cold war

But see, these are local nationalist movements (with some elements similar to Ba'athism). Not Ba'athism, for which Arab Nationalism is an essential element.

If the OP is "make ideologies similar to Ba'athism become prominent in the third world", then it becomes much easier. But Ba'athism itself must be Arab Nationalist, and that won't get far outside the Arab world.
 
Ideologies similar to Baathism had potential to develop in the Third World nations. They could stress on socialism and nationalism, ie. 'National Socialist' ideology, but with no relation with Nazism.Outside Arab world it would also be secular. I think similar ideologies and parties have developed in Third World, but no names come to memory at present.
 
But didn't Latin America already have its own native-born equivalents to Baathism, for example the secularist nationalism of the PRI in Mexico? Like the Baath, they also had an interventionist approach tp economic development that varied over time.

Maybe if anti-clericalism had remained a defining aspect of political identity into the 20th Century, we could have ended up with some sort of Secularist International(ie. a loosely affiliated alliance along the lines of the Socialist International), bringing together the Baath parties, the PRI in Mexico, Peronists in Argentina,, various liberal groupings in Europe, ACLU types in the USA etc. But they'd likely end up finding that there was more that divided them(eg. the Syrians being pro-Shiite and the Iraqis being pro-Sunni, just for starters) than what united them(ie. a negative attitude toward religion in government, and a vaguely defined commiment to state intervention in the economy).

And the Titoists.
 
An equivilant to Arab Nationalists? That might be tricky. Are we talking about a group wanting political union or for alliances? Technically Indians were Hindu Baathists, and Indonesia Malayesque ones. Really, Arab is one of the broader labels since it covers areas spanning two continents, with many countries such as Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Morocco, Tunisia(maybe), and Lebanon having thousands of years of history, their own dialects and languages, different religious minorities, plus histories that did not stop with Muhammed and United into some blob, but continued having their own histories, even if the importance of their areas waned at times. Latin America under the Condor Pact might count as Baathist (depending on if you are going by the first Baathists, or the Neo-Baathism of Assad and Saddam), though after independence from Spain many of the countries broke up into regions, going against any Bolivarian state. Too much difference between econonomies, histories, political structures, racial makeup, dialects, histories from before the Spanish speakers.... Actually, that is kind of like how the various Arab unions kept breaking up.
 
Top