AHC: Have Ancient Sparta be reviled by people today

Just like people who perceived Athens as decadent glorified Sparta, I think that people today likes Sparta because of insatisfaction to current democracy.

Get some reformation according to 21 century principles and needings so people can be satisfied with democracy, love Athens and despise Sparta all again.
 

Sycamore

Banned
Have a modern day totalitarian ideology citing ancient Sparta as its predecessor, and let this analogy be popularized.

Ahem. Adolf Hitler and his Nazi regime already did this; Hitler himself directly cited ancient Sparta's eugenics policy as his personal inspiration for the 'Final Solution'.
 
Just like people who perceived Athens as decadent glorified Sparta, I think that people today likes Sparta because of insatisfaction to current democracy.

Get some reformation according to 21 century principles and needings so people can be satisfied with democracy, love Athens and despise Sparta all again.

I don't know; Americans really seem to love our freedom (without knowing what the word really entails, in some cases.) I honestly don't think most of us think too hard about it. In any case, Athens was hardly a shining example of democracy as we know it.
 
do people really 'glorify' Sparta in general, or just admire their last stand at Thermopylae? Regardless of Sparta's other unsavory qualities, when you have a relative handful of soldiers who make a 'stand to the death' against a foe that far outnumbers them, not to mention that it took place thousands of years ago and is thus completely out of context with modern times, people are bound to find it rather admirable...
 
They do. The audience for 300 is mostly the same audience who thinks Nazi wunderwaffen are cool
...are you fucking serious?
I don't know; Americans really seem to love our freedom (without knowing what the word really entails, in some cases.) I honestly don't think most of us think too hard about it. In any case, Athens was hardly a shining example of democracy as we know it.
frankly, NOTHING was a shining example of democracy up until the modern period (i think there may have been some states which used modern democracy before America but the US is the big persisting example)


as to the actual topic, you're all thinking too hard on this. the simplest and earliest POD is to have no Roman dominance, since they're the ones who really glorified Sparta first because of their own martial tradition (it's also why the Roman war god Mars is a much nicer guy than Ares)
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
No, they were not. They were left out in the mountains to die, if they were weak. Also, "given away" denotes that the children belong to the state in the first place, which is a disturbing notion in and of itself. Next, I would think that by now we would b\have discovered something if the Spartans had left it.

Ok, first off, calm down - this is an internet forum about history - regularly discussing topics such as apartheid and infanticide. If you can't handle discussing these topics in a civil manner, perhaps you shouldn't broach the subjects.

Secondly, modern excavations in the chasm that was meant to have been where the Spartans threw their children have only turned up adult skeletons, according to the swiss excavation team - so whilst there is a legend, Dogson may well be right. At the very least it is disputed, and believed that these skeletons may have belonged to criminals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta#Birth_and_death - look at caption 77.

Thirdly, admittedly with a limited franchise, there was a manner of democracy in terms of choosing the two Kings of Sparta.

Fourthly, in what way is there anything that suggests that children were owned by the state? Culture and tradition are more than likely the primary reason. The shame and prejudice of having a child that wasn't a Spartiate is perfectly capable of being responsible. Hell, culture and tradition is the primary mover in why there is a brutal habit in China of leaving girls to die under the one child policy because they want a boy, and in the western world of forcing baby boys to be circumcised. "Given Away" simply says that someone gave away the child, be it the family, the state, or others.
 
since they're the ones who really glorified Sparta first
As I tried to point above, the first to have glorified Sparta were Athenian aristocrats, for their own political needs against democratic factions.

(it's also why the Roman war god Mars is a much nicer guy than Ares)
Probably as well because they were two different divinities. Mars appears to be originally a defender of farmland in the Roman archaic religion, then extrapolated to war, and just war with that (which makes him closer, if anything, to Athena than Ares).

The interpretatio is essentially a later mechanism without real grasp on spirituality : the same way Venus is FAR closer to Astarte than Aphrodites, for exemple.

Secondly, modern excavations in the chasm that was meant to have been where the Spartans threw their children have only turned up adult skeletons, according to the swiss excavation team - so whilst there is a legend, Dogson may well be right. At the very least it is disputed, and believed that these skeletons may have belonged to criminals.
We shouldn't forget that Sparta's traditions, or rather what we know of it, are largely parasited by Late Sparta (critically in Roman times) own...proto-tourism is how I'd put there. There were public displays of such traditions, more or less degenerated or revived attempts at tradition, for the benefit of visitors.

That said, infanticide isn't unheard of : it's remarkable that no author at my knowledge denies that in Ancient times. At the leatest, it have been a really widespread tale, geographically and temporally.

And as you mentioned this article, I should point you that such infanticide isn't unheard of in Greece outside Sparta, but as well in other regions : Carthago comes in mind, even if there may be confusion with particular rites of burial who may have existed instead OR in parallel, or in Rome (critically with the pater familias authority on his child (including newborns).

"I am still in Alexandria. ... I beg and plead with you to take care of our little child, and as soon as we receive wages, I will send them to you. In the meantime, if (good fortune to you!) you give birth, if it is a boy, let it live; if it is a girl, expose it."

There's quite a trend nowadays about white-washing ancient civilisation from what we consider, and rightfully so, as abominable. But it existed (while not exactly normative), and was part of this ancient culture : denying it wholly (when it's, shall we say politely, a really debated question) have often some not-quite honest reasons.
 
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