AHC: Have an Slavic country formed in western europe

[Višeslav]

I mean, it has been argued before that Western Europe is all protestants and Latin rite Catholics, which would make the Visegrad countries part of Western Europe.

Edit: Germany historically has included modern Czechia, much of Poland, and Kaliningrad at one time or another.

Oh i wasn't aware of it, the main definition of western europe i had known was of those countries that were outside the warsaw pact and either inside nato or friendly to the US, maybe because i'm not from europe we may see those issues more as part of something political rather than cultural

I mean, technically, the Slavs and their sphere of cultural influence (Romania, Albania, Moldavia, the Baltics) are seen as eastern Europe, with Hungary being sort of undefined. The religious and political division can be used, but the way I see it, eastern Europe is usually defined as the (OTL) Balto-Slavic cultural zone, and sometimes Greece & Hungary.

Like I said before, the easiest option is a surviving Great Moravia, just thought I'd give you a map of it at it's greatest extent, in case you need it:

Another possibility - Alpine Slaweni/Karantjani:

Swiss or Austrian Slavs are pretty plausible. There were Slavs in eastern Austria, so if they were to just migrate a little further west...

Slavs that migrated into the alps would have a strong position to defend, and, much like in the similarly mountainous Balkans, would be hard for other groups to assimilate, due to their ability to just go deeper into the mountains until they're strong enough to push the invaders back. Also, the area of Switzerland is near impossible to invade. Basically if a Slavic group established itself there, it would be hard to push them out, and they would at least survive as a plurality. They'd likely end up like the Czechs, becoming catholic, and slightly Germanized, incorporating into Frankia, and later the HRE, but breaking away as the empire weakened (probably around when OTL Switzerland did). They'd likely have a half reformation (due to their location between the centre of Protestantism (Germany) and the centre of Catholicism (Italy), like how Switzerland is split between Catholics and Protestants who tolerate each other.

These Slavs would likely be descendants of the Caranthians (who lived in southeastern Austria and Slovenia).

 

[htgriffin]

A Slavic Pomerania is also not beyond the realm of possibility. I suppose they could convert rather than being overrun.

IIRC, they and the Mecklenbergers did. They just (much like Austria TBQH) Germanized in the interim.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

I mean, technically, the Slavs and their sphere of cultural influence (Romania, Albania, Moldavia, the Baltics) are seen as eastern Europe, with Hungary being sort of undefined. The religious and political division can be used, but the way I see it, eastern Europe is usually defined as the (OTL) Balto-Slavic cultural zone, and sometimes Greece & Hungary.

​

That is mostly due to Cold War, with Iron Curtain being divide between East and West in quite recent past. It is why Finland and Austria are part of the West, while Estonia and Czech Republic are part of the East. Otherwise, Hungarians and West Slavs were culturally much closer to Germans than to Russians.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

2)Acceptable goal: Inside the rhine or the alps in germany, switzerland, austria and northern italy

Would a surviving Carantania qualify?

 

[Vitalis]

How exactly are the Greatern Moravians and Caranthinians Western, while the Czechs and Slovenes are supposedly Eastern European?

 

[Višeslav]

How exactly are the Greatern Moravians and Caranthinians Western, while the Czechs and Slovenes are supposedly Eastern European?

I guess because Hungary (the Pannonian plain) and Austria are seen as western Europe. Also, Great Moravia had lands in Germany (basically all of Lusatia)

 

[Hvalrossen]

Following a war between the Frankish Kingdom and a Slavic State, numerous Slavs are resettled in an isolated area of Francia. Either the in the Alps or the Pyrenees. Somehow a small principality ala Liechenstein, Andorra or San Marino becomes independant.

 

[JDF_01]

Would a surviving Carantania qualify?

Yes, if she can expand further even better... :v

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Yes, if she can expand further even better... :v

*glances down at my signature*

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

This is a post-1900 point of divergence, but I remember an interesting map on this website presenting a scenario with an alternate WWII that led to an independent Jewish state being formed in southeastern Poland, which in turn led to Poland’s borders being Extended much further west into Germany, presumably as compensation. I think this state even had a North Sea coastline.

Unfortunately, I looked for this map before and could not find it.

 

[JDF_01]

*glances down at my signature*

*Realizes about it and start shrieking like a schoolgirl* :V

 

[marcinL]

This is a post-1900 point of divergence, but I remember an interesting map on this website presenting a scenario with an alternate WWII that led to an independent Jewish state being formed in southeastern Poland, which in turn led to Poland’s borders being Extended much further west into Germany, presumably as compensation. I think this state even had a North Sea coastline.

Unfortunately, I looked for this map before and could not find it.

Have Maczków (Haren Ems) for some or another reason become a permanent thing.

 

[JDF_01]

Have Maczków (Haren Ems) for some or another reason become a permanent thing.

Do you think if the allies decide to be a bit harsher on germany would sever Haren to form a microstate just to punish germany if they think like...??? there would be the possibility if so, to them to join poland as an exclave, after the fall of Warsaw pact

 

[krieger]

I think that this is easiest to create by reversing an outcome of Lechfeld battle. Have Otto I and Boleslaus I the Harsh killed. German kingdom is torn apart by civil war (and two pretenders are underaged), Magyars have an open road to loot and kill the population. Polabian Slavs uprising against Saxons is succesful, because Saxony is especially torn apart by the war - it was three pretenders to title of it's duke, each of them is underaged - civil war would be especially disastrous here. The German kingdom disappears as a political entity, Magyar loots combined with war kill majority of population, and Slavs are recolonizing lands pillaged by Magyars.

 

[Basil Makedon]

A Slavic tribe becomes a Byzantine foederati c. 660. They’re settled in N. Italy, where they live until Charlemagne comes along. A large number are conscripted, and as a reward for their excellent performance, are given land in Aquitaine.
During the Angevin period, they compose most of the English army in the Irish campaign, and after the war ends, the Irish are deported, and replaced by the Slavs, acting as a march. In the 1920s, they break away, forming the Republic of Likhtar.

 

[JDF_01]

A Slavic tribe becomes a Byzantine foederati c. 660. They’re settled in N. Italy, where they live until Charlemagne comes along. A large number are conscripted, and as a reward for their excellent performance, are given land in Aquitaine.
During the Angevin period, they compose most of the English army in the Irish campaign, and after the war ends, the Irish are deported, and replaced by the Slavs, acting as a march. In the 1920s, they break away, forming the Republic of Likhtar.

That's a timeline i'd like to read...

 

[Superninja76]

I'm stunned, completely stunned, that noone has brought up Samo, the frankish arms dealer turned revolutionary general turned warrior-king, who united the wends and smashed the forces of the great merovingian empire at Wogastisburg.

 

[Višeslav]

This is an edited post from the alternate ethnic groups thread that was inspired by this discussion. The reason it took me so long to post it here is that I was working on the graphic for it along with a few other projects.

Credit to @The Professor for the coat of arms.


[edit:] I wish I could post this in higher quality, but the site won't allow it.

Karantyany (West Caranthians or Alpine Slaweni)

Language: Karantyansky (a west Slavic language with prominent German loanwords)

Ancestry: Caranthian Slavs that migrated into the western Alps

Religion: Split between Protestant and Catholic, but majority Catholic

Region: Central and Western Alps (OTL parts of Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Tyrol)

Culture: West Slavic with significant German influence. Male traditional dress is more Bavarian than Slavic, cuisine is typically Alpine German (sausages, cheeses). Karantiya has a large rural population which is very superstitious, most folktales are of proto-Slavic or local origin. The cities are very developed and modern, with the urban culture being more akin to the rest of Europe.

Brief History: The Carinthians, a Slavic group from southeastern Austria migrated westward through the alps, with numerous tribes settling in the western mountains during the later years of the Ostrogothic kingdom. The decentralized government did nothing to stop them. The Caranthians converted to Catholicism, and the tribal leader responsible for this, Stojmir was recognized as the duke of Caranthia. The Caranthian duchy was a tributary state of the Lombard Kingdom of Italy, and was later conquered by the Franks under Charlemagne. It was an autonomous region within Middle Frankia, and later in the Kingdom of Germany inside the HRE. Carinthia declared independence in 1458, as the empire's authority south of the alps waned. The population saw itself as distinct from Germany, and had closer trade relations with many Italian city states than with the rest of Germany, so independence had been considered for a while. In their early days of statehood, the Caranthians became famed as mercenaries throughout Europe [this isn't just BC of the OTL swiss, though their mountain climate certainly good for making tough people. Slavs, who originally had a strong martial culture were generally regarded as great warriors and often prized as mercs, these somewhat warlike practices are not likely to stop given the harsh climate and position in between two cultural regions. The proximity of Italy, with its high demand for mercenary armies also helps. Swiss Slavs are pretty likely to be mercenaries]. During the 30 years war, the country had a brief religious civil war. The war ended in a compromise, allowing the Protestants to practice freely, but guaranteeing the catholic church retention of its lands in the duchy. The country's parliament guarantees a certain amount of seats to both Catholics and protestants to this day. Caranthia effectively continued to be run by Catholics. During the French Revolutionary Wars and Napoleonic Wars, the duchy opposed the french. The french, with the help of like-minded locals, established a short lived sister republic in Carinthia, but quickly lost control of the country, with the duke regaining power. Carinthia remained an independent french puppet state for the larger part of the Napoleonic wars, but turned on Napoleon. Post war, Caranthia retained its independence, being landlocked, it did not attempt to establish colonies. It was not part of the German confederation, but was opposed to the spread of Liberalism, and thus allied with Austria. Caranthia was fairly quick to industrialize, being fully industrialized by the mid 1800s. In WWI they sided with the allies, since both Germany and Austria had pretensions to Caranthian land. Caranthia, seen as "rightfully German" by the Nazis, was invaded in WWII. The small country mounted a strong resistance, aided by the impassable mountains that had won it many wars before. Unfortunately, the duke eventually surrendered to the Germans in an attempt to spare his people, which failed miserably, with many Caranthians sent to concentration camps. A resistance movement existed throughout the war, and eventually won Caranthia its independence as a republic, since the Duke had lost the population's trust. Caranthia joined the European Union, and later NATO, being the only Slavic country on the western side of the cold war.

​

 

[AlternateHistory191]

This map's PoD could do.

 

[245]

1) Easy. An independent Sorb nation-state in Lusatia was suggested even in the twentieth century.

2) Greater settlement of Friuli by Carantanian Slavs in the eighth century, leading to Friuli (technically inside the Alps) becoming part of ethnically Slovene country.


1 and 2 would involve relatively few PODs. The rest all requires a bloody collapse of the Frankish state (or any analogous successor to Roman authority in Gaul).

never heard of these groups of people before.