This all day! Christians and other religious minorities were routinely persecuted.
AHC: Have a victorious Nazi Germany undergo China-syle reforms
- Thread starter GriffinFTW
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This all day! Christians and other religious minorities were routinely persecuted.
Zagan
Donor
It does not seam at all like this to me. Sorry. I simply can not realize how you got this idea. OP said absolutely nothing suggesting holocaust denial.
Faeelin
Banned
I'm definitely no fan of Churchill, but the difference between Hitler and Churchill is wide enough to fit, oh, several million people in.
The "well there were out eugenicists" too argument is absurd to me. Most eugenicists believed that the government should just encourage breeding of people with good genes and, at worst, that the genetically disabled should be forcibly sterilised. That's a massive difference to industrial scale extermination of human beings.
I am a "fan" of Churchill, at least some aspects, but recognize his views on eugenics and natives. Recognizing Winston Churchill's personal views and opinions does not mean condoning or dismissing the actions of Adolf Hitler.
Faeelin
Banned
Sure. But I'm not the person who said that they weren't that different.
I cannot see Hitler ever claiming that "Frightfullness is not a remedy known to the Nazi pharmacopoeia."
I think tenth's point was to say that Hitler and Nazism's beliefs were not that alien to 20th century Europe. They weren't. Anti-Semitism, eugenics, anti-Bolshevism... they were common beliefs at that time. Same in the US. It's just that the der Fuehrer and Co. took them to an absolute extreme.
Pretty sure the British didn't stuff people in ovens, regardless of their other manifold sins, nor aimed to remove 30+ million people from Eastern Europe and enslave the remainder to form their own colonial Empire.
France also elected Leon Blum in 1936, and their crimes happened under Nazi domination - admittedly of the own accord of the far-right government, but a government that was formed because of the Nazis, not because of internal political movements.
There is a big difference between systematic racism and eugenics programs and aiming to kill scores of millions of people and convert Eastern Europe into a slave state.
The Milligram experiment had a lot of flaws, the researcher who did it twisted the results.
Bravery is the most democratic of human virtues. The worst rapists, murderers, villains, torturers, can all be brave. Bravery from genocidal maniacs does not much impress me.
Hitler's long term goal was a state of endless war for the purification of the German race. That rather sounds like the goal of killing for the sake of killing.
I'm sure the slaves on their plantations in Eastern Europe would be overjoyed at the new, friendly Nazis.
Of course we have stuff to learn from them as regarding human nature - they weren't a different species separate in their emotions and impulses - but the Nazis legitimately were a step above anybody else in their cruelty and horror.
War crimes by the troops has always happened throughout history. It doesn't take drugs to do it.
Maybe because it didn't plan to genocide all of Eastern Europe, wipe out the Jews, launched wars of aggression against the vast majority of European countries, and in the short period where it was actively involve in murder managed to kill over ten million people and scores of millions of war dead. The communists were awful, but they pale in comparison to what the Nazis were actively planning.
ThePest179
Banned
Fixed it. The Holocaust killed 11 million people overall, and 13 million civilians died in the USSR alone. Add in the political dissidents killed by the Nazis or by their puppets, and the other nations of Eastern Europe, and there's thirty million (and that doesn't count the 20 million who died fighting for and against the Nazis). And they wanted to kill 2x-3x that number IOTL.
This was fun, but the challenge was for a non-dystopia, and you had Hasselhoff elected President of Germany.
None of this means that the communists should get a free pass. They murdered millions across the globe, and the fact that the Nazis managed to outdo them in the pace of killings does not absolve communism of its totalitarian terror.
And honestly if you start to put "better then Nazis" as the bar for not being reprehensible, then I think that only Genghis Khan and Tamerlane don`t make that grade.
See. I don't think its impossible to image Germany, around 2100 AD, finally moving entirely beyond the We are the Supermenschen and therefore get to debase the weaker people and begin to consider regaining some humanity.
I would suggest that the rise of the United States, which Hitler used as a model for his own project, largely featured racist exploitation to disturbing degrees and wanton genocide of whole peoples who got in the way. The United States has moved on from that sort of policy; the wingnuts like Dylan Roof are noted as wingnuts.
Perhaps following the same 150 year cycle between 1815 and 1965, Nazi Germany decides to formally end informal abuses of the Untermensch Caste with some kind of measures like LBJ's Civil Rights act.
I would not put hope for Nazi Germany to reform in the 20th Century and think it may well take until the 22nd Century to get the OP's requested fixes. This answers the question though; Nazi Germany can reform after all the people who believed in killing lesser humans for land are dead, and the ones who believe in raping or enslaving them for profit or pleasure are a fading plurality.
Good luck going faster than that.
I would suggest that the rise of the United States, which Hitler used as a model for his own project, largely featured racist exploitation to disturbing degrees and wanton genocide of whole peoples who got in the way. The United States has moved on from that sort of policy; the wingnuts like Dylan Roof are noted as wingnuts.
Perhaps following the same 150 year cycle between 1815 and 1965, Nazi Germany decides to formally end informal abuses of the Untermensch Caste with some kind of measures like LBJ's Civil Rights act.
I would not put hope for Nazi Germany to reform in the 20th Century and think it may well take until the 22nd Century to get the OP's requested fixes. This answers the question though; Nazi Germany can reform after all the people who believed in killing lesser humans for land are dead, and the ones who believe in raping or enslaving them for profit or pleasure are a fading plurality.
Good luck going faster than that.
I don't think Nazi Germany can last that long. Their economy was based on warfare and looting, their education system was crap, and the whole thing was designed so that once Hitler died it would end. The last part is an unavoidable glitch in the Nazi system. Everyone was in a constant struggle for supremacy, and without a leader to guide them the underlings would have torn each other to shreds.
ThePest179
Banned
This, essentially. Even if the Nazis don't try their best to kill each other, an important thing to note is that the Nazis based their entire nation as a totalitarian one, not a representative democracy. Getting people to step away from reactionary beliefs gets alot harder when those beliefs are enforced at the barrel of a gun.
Presuming a victory against the Soviet Union and a stand-down to a cold peace with the West, Germany has a great advantage: They can exploit their vassals, puppets and whatever poor status the untermensch of the East are going to have.
Nazi Germany would eventually demilitarize and stand down, and a "new normalcy" would be created. It wouldn't be around as long as Hitler was at the helm, but the Germans have got to hang to together or they'll hang separately in the vassal nightmare they've created.
And I think that the whole team of Rivals thing assumes that Hitler makes no action as he faces his own demise. He might be dead shortly after 1945, but if he knows this he can plan for that.
The Death of Stalin didn't lead to a national collapse; it led to intense political drama and ultimately a more stable government being formed. The death of Hitler, particularly after his plans for merging the Wehrmacht into the SS and the obvious means of patronage by giving unhappy political elites vast holdings in the East, doesn't seem to lead to the end.
Remember, all that land and wealth in the German conquest of Russia is a source of profit and power for people in the upper echeleons. The Losers of the political duel in Germany can get large holdings with slave laborers and a comfortable life in the New Germany.
For that reason, and the part where too many people will hate Germany for them to split apart, I think a Victorious Nazi Germany will stand strong.
The education thing is a big killer. The Nazis impressment of their own pseudo-scientific bullshit and relative gutting of the sciences in favor of physical education and similar programs is going to have a massive consequence after about two generations. Not even the Soviets impressed their ideology upon the sciences to the degree the Nazis did, especially the hard sciences.