AHC: Have a ruling dynasty of Egypt style themselves as "Pharaoh" after 700AD

Dolan

Banned
In short, have a Dynasty that ruling Egypt end up adopting "Pharaoh/Fir'aun" as their primary royal title, after the Arab conquest of Egypt.

Who is much more likely to adopt such old title that hasn't used for at least 700 years, but still very much well known in the world? A Native Coptic Dynasty who overthrown their Arab rulers? An Arab or Turkic Warlord who decides that this ancient title seem fancy and used that to legitimize their rule over Egypt? European Crusaders somehow attacking through Egypt and instead of establishing European style Crusader State, pulled a Ptolemy and used ancient Biblical title to appear more legitimate? A Mongol / Timurid Warlord who somehow getting settled there and think the ancient title is fancy, Egyptian Separatists from Ottoman who want to distance themselves, Napoleon end up taking over Egypt and style himself as one, or Modern Egyptian Nationalism pulling ideas from ancient times and used Pharaoh instead of King?

Note that "Pharaoh" need not to be their exact title, as long as they try to draw legitimacy by comparing themselves to the thousands of years of ancient Egyptian rulers, aka pulling a Ptolemaic Dynasty (incest may be discarded by discretion tho, but being Targaryens is fine too). You could have them written in very ancient Hieroglyphs (nswt-bjt), Semitic (Paroh), the Coptic language (Parauw?), or the Arabized version (Fir'aun/Fir'awn), and those are still fine as long as they claim to resurrect thousands years old of Egyptian tradition.
 
Given the overt pagan connotations, I can't see a normal Muslim or Christian ruler of Egypt styling himself as Pharaoh. A mad dictator might do it though to embellish his cult of personality.
 
A secular or personality cult totalitarian type seems like a good bet, since any religious government would have serious issues with the concept.

Hell, the very concept of the pharaoh was pretty heavy on the personality cult, so a Kim family style regime in Egypt would have a good shot at bringing back a lot of that concept.
 

Dolan

Banned
Given the overt pagan connotations, I can't see a normal Muslim or Christian ruler of Egypt styling himself as Pharaoh. A mad dictator might do it though to embellish his cult of personality.

A secular or personality cult totalitarian type seems like a good bet, since any religious government would have serious issues with the concept.

Hell, the very concept of the pharaoh was pretty heavy on the personality cult, so a Kim family style regime in Egypt would have a good shot at bringing back a lot of that concept.

That's exactly why this is an AHC. Maybe Egypt rebelled somewhere and the Coptic and Arab parts of the rebellion ended up with having their leader took the title of Pharaoh to signify that the new Egyptian Kingdom would be a secular one?

Or maybe Napoleon, when going there, think it would serve him better if he just took over control there and as he is a foreign ruler from nominally secular post-revolution France, he picked the title of Pharaoh in attempt to invoke Ancient Egypt and pulling a Ptolemy?

Or yeah, Kim Family dictatorship situation during 20th century.
 
Honestly, it would be more likely that an Egypt monarch might call himself Caesar (that is if Islam does not exist or fails to expand). Maybe if in an alternate timeline, there's something like Romanticism and a form of Revivalism could Egypt have a pharaoh again.
 

Dolan

Banned
"Pharaoh" is quite the opposite of a secular title. Its bearer is essentially the earthly regent of the Gods.
Keep in mind that the title is deemed secular because, stargate aside, there are no more worshippers of Ra and Osiris.
 
because, stargate aside, there are no more worshippers of Ra and Osiris.
Which is one of the reasons why nobody (normal) would choose the title in the first place.
It'd be a bit like Vladimir Putin declaring himself the Priest-King of Perun.
 
In Coptic, the descendent of "pharoah" is still used to this day in the form "erro" (or "perro") to mean "king", so any Coptic-speaking Egypt will natively call themselves "Pharaoh". But IIRC more formal Coptic has more Greek loanwords, and Greek is likely to be the language of the elite of any Christian Egyptian state in the same way any Islamic Egyptian state will use Arabic, so this native title will never have high prestige.

A weakness in Arab power in Egypt could allow the Makurians/Nubians to conquer the place (no later than the 12th century or so), creating a second Kushite dynasty in Egypt. They'd support the local Copts and Christianity in general, and their title would likely also be "Pharaoh". If such a dynasty/Christian Egypt survived to this day, then they'd likely be known as Pharaohs.

The best-case scenarios for a later scenario are either a Coptic revolt expels the Caliphate from Egypt, or Egypt undergoes a cultural revival comparable to Persia which means it becomes a Coptic-speaking yet Islamic country. The only later scenarios possible would be a Mongol conquest of Egypt leading to a Christian Mongol state there or perhaps a Crusader conquest of Egypt and a Crusader state there. The Mongol state might cultivate the Coptic language (since they'd convert to the local Christian faith, although perhaps instead they'd be Catholic to gain support from the Crusaders), while the Crusader state might similarly do so in order to gain a powerbase and root out Islamic influences to protect from outsiders. After the 13th century it's pretty much impossible, barring some crazy nationalistic dictator taking on the title, because Egypt is increasingly Arabised at that point and there's no real chance for a Coptic revival to occur.

Honestly, it would be more likely that an Egypt monarch might call himself Caesar (that is if Islam does not exist or fails to expand). Maybe if in an alternate timeline, there's something like Romanticism and a form of Revivalism could Egypt have a pharaoh again.

Aside from Egypt getting a Pharaonist dictator who makes Saddam Hussein's neo-Babylonianism look perfectly normal, this is the best option. I think the last chance for this would be the Crusaders conquering Egypt, and their kingdom "going native" so to speak over the years. Come the equivalent of romanticism and the era of nationalism, the King of Egypt adopts the title of Pharaoh by which he becomes most known by in the outside world (much like titles like Kaiser and Tsar).

Which is one of the reasons why nobody (normal) would choose the title in the first place.
It'd be a bit like Vladimir Putin declaring himself the Priest-King of Perun.

But unlike "Priest-King of Perun", "Pharaoh" is a title with a huge legacy behind it. I don't think the Pharaoh's religious association with Egyptian gods would be much of a problem, or at least it wouldn't trump nationalism. Christian Roman Emperors continued use of the title pontifex maximus, and the Pope has been honoured for centuries with the same title (although officially the Pope does not claim that title, but does claim to be a pontifex).

As for Biblical connotations, there were good pharaohs in the Bible like the Pharaoh in the story of Joseph (although in Islam, this Pharaoh is only called a "king" while the Bible calls him both a "king" and a "pharaoh", which is more a problem for an Islamic Egypt scenario). And besides, many Assyrian people in the modern age proudly look back on the Assyrian Empire despite it being portrayed as evil and wicked in the Bible.
 
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Any chance of the british monarchs claiming the title?

Imagine that, Queen Victoria, Empress of India and Pharaoh of Egypt.
 

Dolan

Banned
Any chance of the british monarchs claiming the title?

Imagine that, Queen Victoria, Empress of India and Pharaoh of Egypt.
Good point, but isn't Khedivate of Egypt still technically under Ottoman suzerainty until 1914, when the Khedive declare his independence as Sultan of Egypt or something?
 
Hard to see that any Christian or Muslim ruler is going to take pagan title centuries after last pharaoh was dead. So only way seems being that there is some direct continuation on the linage.

So someone pharaoh perhaps should convert to Christianity which mean earlier POD. Perhaps Crisis of the 3rd Century is much worse and ends to total collapse of Roman Empire. Someone Egyptian warlord declares himself as pharaoh. Christianity still spreads rapidly in Egypt and in 4th or 5th century pharaoh converts to Christianity.
 
Good point, but isn't Khedivate of Egypt still technically under Ottoman suzerainty until 1914, when the Khedive declare his independence as Sultan of Egypt or something?

I think so yeah, you'd need a more direct takeover by Britain.
 

Anawrahta

Banned
This is actually more plausible than most might think. The Ancient egyptian hieroglyphic inscription was around 400 AD, just 230 yrs until the arab conquests. Perhaps in this interlude, a Coptic priest conducts more exhaustive research of ancient egyptian culture and history before the language fully disappears, and once the arabs take egypt those records of pharaonic egypt are translated to arabic and persian. Then when the Tulunids seize control of egypt, they have greater memory of the glories of the pharaohs and in a fit madness Khumarawayh bin tulun declares himself Pharaoh of egypt along with sleeping on a boat in mercury filled basin, riding disposable horses, etc... So basically more is known about pharaohs and a mad turkish slave general declares himself to be the continuation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khumarawayh_ibn_Ahmad_ibn_Tulun
 

Kaze

Banned
Idea 1. How about the Mumluks? Some of the Mumluks were not Muslims - I could see where a Coptic Christian is forced to become a Mumluck, he rises through the ranks, and becomes leader of the Mumluk Sultanate of Cairo (or Pharaoh).

Idea 2.
Napoleon Bonaparte. Napoleon was in Egypt in some time. He spent the night within the King's Chamber of the Great Pyramid. He never spoke of what happened there. There are many theories - he might have done a Free-Masonry ceremony, a peaceful slumber, or a visitation by the Ghost of Alexander the Great urging Napoleon to his destiny. But in a different universe - Napoleon could become Pharaoh.
 

Dolan

Banned
Now I am thinking of something about Coptic Christian Revolt.

Let's say that a variation of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashmurian_revolt ends up being better pre-planned and coordinated through Egypt. With a group of competent leaders who united to kick the invading Arabs with a caveat.

They don't want to go back being subjects of Constantinople either, so after thinking something in their minds, the leaders of the revolt decides to do the otherwise unthinkable, crown one of them as the new Coptic Christian Pharaoh... And somehow they managed to hold Egypt for quite some time, long enough to be considered as the thirty-fifth Dynasty of Egypt (or thirty-sixth, if you count the Arabs).

Assuming they did hold themselves against Arab attacks, how will Constantinople react about that?
 
The Hellenism of Christian-Egyptian culture means that any Copt-revolt king likely calls himself Basileus instead of Pharaoh, but it's not impossible. For a Muslim scenario, if Shah and Khan can become Muslim titles I really don't think there'd be anything wrong with Fir'aun.
 

Dolan

Banned
The Hellenism of Christian-Egyptian culture means that any Copt-revolt king likely calls himself Basileus instead of Pharaoh, but it's not impossible. For a Muslim scenario, if Shah and Khan can become Muslim titles I really don't think there'd be anything wrong with Fir'aun.
Maybe the Copts also somewhat feeling abandoned by the Hellenes, so much that they trace the root of their culture to pre-Ptolemaic era (but otherwise keeping Coptic Orthodoxy), modelling themselves on the Good Pharaoh of Joseph's Era.
 
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