With a POD between AD 1200 and 1500, have any Muslim power participate in the exploration of the Americas, the southern African coast, the Indian Ocean, Australasia, or the Pacific. Participation should be on at least the same scale as OTL's minor European exploring powers, like Denmark or Sweden, but extra points if it can realistically compete with the likes of Spain, Portugal, England, the Netherlands, and France. Assume the Age of Exploration does occur, and begins around 1500 as in OTL.
AHC: Have a Muslim power participate in the Age of Exploration
- Thread starter Qhapaq Inka
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Do you mean European Muslim power. ? Because Asian Muslim powers exploring the Indian Ocean is sort of a given (and given the spread of Islam through Indonesia, Malaysia, obviously happened OTL)
Would no Reconquest and a surviving Al-Andalus work? I have seen arguments that Moroccan explorers reached the Atlantic Islands (and even America, but that sounds bien trouve), but I have no idea if that is really true. However, the Barbery coast certainly produced plenty of competent sailors, so a POD there might work
Would no Reconquest and a surviving Al-Andalus work? I have seen arguments that Moroccan explorers reached the Atlantic Islands (and even America, but that sounds bien trouve), but I have no idea if that is really true. However, the Barbery coast certainly produced plenty of competent sailors, so a POD there might work
First, Age of Exploration concerns mainly European cultures because, on what concerned Arabo-Islamic world Indian Ocean or North Africa was already pretty much discovered (Vasco de Gama had to use a particularly aggressive diplomacy to chase Muslims traders from India). So, I would say the OP is a bit irrelevant
Now, if you search a competition with European naval powers in Atlantic : A Berber dynasty managing to keep some power on southern Spain (at best, part of Algraves and Grenada) and North African coast could help if it have his domination on terrestrial african roads blockaded by rivaling berbers tribes or a western African hegemony.
Then, you could see a tentative to bypass it if full terrestrial tentatives aren't possible (I don't really see a good lasting reason, but ponctual dead-ends may exist) by coastal presence up to south Africa (and a possible road to Brazil). It wouldn't be Spain-level, and would likely suffer from a two-front issue (Christian in North, Berbers/African in South, possibly Turks on East) making the rivalry short-lived.
Now, if you search a competition with European naval powers in Atlantic : A Berber dynasty managing to keep some power on southern Spain (at best, part of Algraves and Grenada) and North African coast could help if it have his domination on terrestrial african roads blockaded by rivaling berbers tribes or a western African hegemony.
Then, you could see a tentative to bypass it if full terrestrial tentatives aren't possible (I don't really see a good lasting reason, but ponctual dead-ends may exist) by coastal presence up to south Africa (and a possible road to Brazil). It wouldn't be Spain-level, and would likely suffer from a two-front issue (Christian in North, Berbers/African in South, possibly Turks on East) making the rivalry short-lived.
As was implied above, so far as the Indian Ocean and the South China Sea goes, Muslim powers did participate in the Age of Exploration and did their part to pave its way.
As for the Atlantic, involving the Moroccans would be an obvious choice. They did participate on a small scale. The right POD could up that scale.
As for the Atlantic, involving the Moroccans would be an obvious choice. They did participate on a small scale. The right POD could up that scale.
Abu Bakr II of Mali sent out a major expedition across the ocean that never returned. Have this expedition succeed and you can add Mali to the list. They perhaps couldn't colonize anything in face of European onslaught, but they would discover the Americas before Europe.
Thanks for the responses! I should have clarified in the original post: when I mentioned the Indian Ocean basin, I had in mind those parts that were still unknown to or unexplored by the Muslim world, such as the Crozet and Kerguelen islands, Australia, even Antarctica, and beyond the Indian Ocean to New Guinea, Melanesia, and the remote islands of the Pacific, including New Zealand, Micronesia, Hawaii, Easter Island, etc., that is, lands that were explored and colonized by European powers in OTL between 1500 and 1900.
As for Muslim powers, I'm open to candidates from any part of the world. As has been pointed out, Muslim Iberia/Morocco is an attractive choice, but it could also be Muslim sultanates in Indonesia, or even a more naval-oriented Ottoman, Safavid, or Mughal Empire (less likely, to be sure).
As for Muslim powers, I'm open to candidates from any part of the world. As has been pointed out, Muslim Iberia/Morocco is an attractive choice, but it could also be Muslim sultanates in Indonesia, or even a more naval-oriented Ottoman, Safavid, or Mughal Empire (less likely, to be sure).
A Malacca or Brunei that is more mercantilist would be better suited to exploring the Pacific Islands or find Australasia (and by find, I mean actually set foot there and spread Islam and stuff). The only problem was that their industry was minuscule compared to Europe and they never had a reason to go off exploring in the East, and why should they? they already have good relations with almost every polity from India to Japan, and the region already has (and sells) stuff that they want.
Maybe they're made aware of European poking around in the area and decide to see if there's something worthwhile there?
The earlier it is, the less of a gap there is between the Muslim powers and the European interlopers, plus the Muslims are closer.
The three gunpowder empires are unlikely to be major explorers. They are sandwiched in the middle of a very well traveled part of the world with no real need to do it. Although Oman has very real incentive to explore because it's existence was pretty much entirely based on it being a naval and trade power. Indonesia is another good choice given how strong they are as a power.
Hmm, maybe they can be pushed into exploration from some of their closer enemies.
If the pagan-Hindu-ist Majapahit Empire would have declined in a more different manner (decline, but going down fighting more than OTL), there would be more enmity between it and the Malay Sultanates and there would be greater incentive to combat the forces in the seas between the islands of the East Indies. This would spur greater shipbuilding and produce more explorers around the region. Maybe with a POD of about 1300 with Islam arriving as per OTL, it could work.
The problem with the Pacific is that, excepting Australia and maybe New Caledonia and Hawaii , mostly its just little islands , a long long way apart.
That makes them hard to find in the first place (I mean , you could hardly miss America, sailing west, but in the Pacific you could sail right past a dozen islands and never know it); but, worse, it means that until sophisticated navigation techniques come along, you are probably not going to be able to re-find them if you want to go back.
And mostly, they were not very useful. Northern Australia is a shit if a place, and the Pacific islands not much use for anything.
The Islamic nations in the East in 16C-18C were sophisticated advanced civilizations. It's hard to see them getting excited over what they might find in the Pacific. Europeans took 300 odd years to bother much with them - not for want of capability, just not worth the bother
That makes them hard to find in the first place (I mean , you could hardly miss America, sailing west, but in the Pacific you could sail right past a dozen islands and never know it); but, worse, it means that until sophisticated navigation techniques come along, you are probably not going to be able to re-find them if you want to go back.
And mostly, they were not very useful. Northern Australia is a shit if a place, and the Pacific islands not much use for anything.
The Islamic nations in the East in 16C-18C were sophisticated advanced civilizations. It's hard to see them getting excited over what they might find in the Pacific. Europeans took 300 odd years to bother much with them - not for want of capability, just not worth the bother
katchen
Banned
I think the best Muslim power to participate in exploration actually is Morocco. And the best POD may well be the failure of Prince Henry of Portugal to capture Safi in I believe the 1480s. The Sale Raiders (Sale is directly across the river from Rabat, Morocco's capital) were a wide ranging bunch of pirates, who would kidnap Christian villagers from as far away as the Baltic, Norway, Iceland and once even Newfoundland. It would not be too much of a departure to have them troll the New World regularly and set up havens that develop into colonies there. Their seamanship and their ships during the 17th and 18th Centuries was certainly up to the task.
Thanks for all your guy's feedback. So there appears to be a consensus that the most plausible Muslim state to get involved in the AoE is Morocco (with or without a Muslim presence in Iberia due to a failed Reconquista). This obviously makes sense due to the initial AoE expeditions originating in this region; a Moroccan expedition to the New World could easily have followed on the heels of a Catholic Iberian voyage, given a stronger Moroccan state being developed from a 15th-century POD.
It also seems plausible to have a Muslim state in the Indonesian archipelago initiate voyages of exploration that reach the east of the archipelago, New Guinea, and possibly Australia or Melanesia as well; this, as pointed out, could be in response to the increased Portuguese and Spanish presence in the region during the 16th century and the resulting competition for control over the archipelago's natural resources.
Finally, there were a couple suggestions for Oman as a good candidate in the heart of the Muslim world. For those familiar with the history of Oman, how long did it operate as an autonomous trading nation before falling under British influence? And what regions of the world could it most plausibly be involved in beyond those which it was in OTL? It seems like Oman's trade was focused on the east coast of Africa, so could Omani expeditions continue on to the west side of Africa, and thence to South America? Or would the Omanis focus on colonizing the islands of the Indian Ocean (e.g. Seychelles, Mauritius, Chagos) and potentially western Australia?
And given any of these scenarios, how realistically could they compete with the European powers at any given time? Would Morocco, for instance, be able to establish colonies in the Americas alongside Spain and Portugal, or would they be shut out in some way? Indeed, with a strong Morocco on their doorstep, would Spain and Portugal allocate some of their resources to military expeditions into Morocco and North Africa itself? Would a stronger Muslim state in Indonesia be able to prevent or reverse a Spanish conquest of the Philippines? Would Portuguese trade with India be disrupted, or forced to pass through Muslim intermediaries, thus negating the impetus for Portuguese expeditions to the east to begin with?
It also seems plausible to have a Muslim state in the Indonesian archipelago initiate voyages of exploration that reach the east of the archipelago, New Guinea, and possibly Australia or Melanesia as well; this, as pointed out, could be in response to the increased Portuguese and Spanish presence in the region during the 16th century and the resulting competition for control over the archipelago's natural resources.
Finally, there were a couple suggestions for Oman as a good candidate in the heart of the Muslim world. For those familiar with the history of Oman, how long did it operate as an autonomous trading nation before falling under British influence? And what regions of the world could it most plausibly be involved in beyond those which it was in OTL? It seems like Oman's trade was focused on the east coast of Africa, so could Omani expeditions continue on to the west side of Africa, and thence to South America? Or would the Omanis focus on colonizing the islands of the Indian Ocean (e.g. Seychelles, Mauritius, Chagos) and potentially western Australia?
And given any of these scenarios, how realistically could they compete with the European powers at any given time? Would Morocco, for instance, be able to establish colonies in the Americas alongside Spain and Portugal, or would they be shut out in some way? Indeed, with a strong Morocco on their doorstep, would Spain and Portugal allocate some of their resources to military expeditions into Morocco and North Africa itself? Would a stronger Muslim state in Indonesia be able to prevent or reverse a Spanish conquest of the Philippines? Would Portuguese trade with India be disrupted, or forced to pass through Muslim intermediaries, thus negating the impetus for Portuguese expeditions to the east to begin with?
Shut, likely. A Berber state would still be really tribal based at least in Africa, would suffer from lack of trees, relative disinterest for Atlantic, and from Mediterranea (more rich and more obvious as a "training" basin) being a Christian lake.
I can see muslims explorations in Africa, even if possible an Islamic presence on Guinea gulf but America is another stuff : maybe Brazil coast but it would be too far and less interesting for Muslims than for Christians.
They did it OTL, with a relative success (Morrocan coast being taken over for some times).
More naval motivated Morocco doesn't make it stronger (it actually means it lost control of sudanese trade roads or at best a large part of it) and can actually spread thin its ressources for a short time.
If we keep the idea of a Berber dynasty keeping Algraves and Grenada, I would think the reconquest by Spanish christian states is pretty much unavoidable at this point even if delayed, and as OTL, it would be an incitative for controlling Morrocean coast.
Will it make more interested in establishing colonies in American East coasts, initially just for trees to build more ships?
If Morocon state is more naval based, trees will be very valuable commodity. America is full of trees. It could motivate Morocco to establish colony in American East coasts.
Seeing how naval expeditions would likely be motivated far more for african trade already known by Berbers rather than "let's go west", I would tend to think trading posts and strong points along Guinea Gulf are far more probable.
This would really vary. First off, the Philippines are a mix of Muslim and non-Muslim kingdoms, such as the Kingdom of Tondo and the Muslim Sultanates of Sulu and Maguindanao. This would probably result in Spanish colonization of about almost every Philippine island north of Maguindanao Island unless the Muslim Sultanates have a great leap in ships, military strategies and gunpowder uses. The only problem is that the way in which the Spanish fought was new and unseen to the kingdoms there, and mass-producing gunpowder and storing it in tropical South-East Asia would require some big thinking, all within just a few years of Spain's arrival.
If you want to kick-start SE-Asia into the Early Modern period and sail the Unknown Seas, then you would have to give it an enemy or a conflict that would require the kingdoms there to innovate and invent new things and thoughts first before Spanish arrival.