AHC: Guilds as unions

With the latest POD possible, have the medieval guilds persist into and beyond the industrial age and develop into an equivalent of labor unions.
 
Unlikely if you keep the medieval organisation of guild. It's a very hierarchical organisation, more close to modern trusts that have social issues in order to kept the trade organized that unions.
Basically, it would maybe evolve like an union diriged by owners, so not very effective, and less interesting as patronizing or paternalism for business.
 
Keeping guilds around, though with much less political power and no monopoly, shouldn't be too difficult. Turning them into labour unions is however, since guilds are essentially made up by small business owners and a guild representing employees, while possible, would not be a guild in any traditional sense and would have to be newly created rather than reformed from an existing one.
 
The closest analogue that occurs to me would be an apprentices' guild, that would represent their interests against the established master craftsmen.
 
The closest analogue that occurs to me would be an apprentices' guild, that would represent their interests against the established master craftsmen.

'Popular Guilds' that are exactly what you described cropped up across the German states in the mid-19th century, but most were crushed either through state or noble action or through the cultural backlash against the 1848 revolutionaries, of which most popular guilds supported. Have the revolutions go another way and perhaps you get what the OP is going for.
 
'Popular Guilds' that are exactly what you described cropped up across the German states in the mid-19th century, but most were crushed either through state or noble action or through the cultural backlash against the 1848 revolutionaries, of which most popular guilds supported. Have the revolutions go another way and perhaps you get what the OP is going for.

Well, i agree that the popular guild could have been transformed themselves as unions. But 1)you'll agree that they're not really the medieval guilds that Once asked for, 2)they'll not remplace unions but more likely, under the foreign influence, transform thelselves in regular ones.
 
Well, i agree that the popular guild could have been transformed themselves as unions. But 1)you'll agree that they're not really the medieval guilds that Once asked for, 2)they'll not remplace unions but more likely, under the foreign influence, transform thelselves in regular ones.

Hyperbolus suggested apprentice guilds as "the closest analogue". Popular guilds wouldn't be IOTL trade unions, but in any ATL where guilds are retained you're unlikely to see OTL-style trade unions emerge to begin with, so the point is rather moot.
 
2)they'll not remplace unions but more likely, under the foreign influence, transform thelselves in regular ones.

Oh, they don't necessarily need to entirely replace unions, although that gets bonus points. Just one medieval guild continuing to exist, and being associated with the worker's movement, is sufficient.
 
One of the precursor to industrial unions were the "craft unions". A craft union was divided into workers who had a particular skill, as opposed to all the workers (regardless of their specific job) in the general industry belonged to an industrial union.

Craft unions had a lot of the same characteristics of a guild.

The major difference between a guild and a union was that guilds contained people who were essentially business owners. Journeymen and apprentices basically worked under the masters. So there is a conflict of interest there.

However, it's possible that the guilds could have turned themselves into craft unions once the industrial revolution persisted long enough that large corporations are reducing any skilled craftsmen into mere laborers.

The big problem is having guilds survive that long into the industrial revolution. Free market capitalism was in many ways a response to the cronyism and inefficiencies of the old guild system which kept prices artifcially high. Once guilds lost of their monopoly on their profession, they offered little benefit to their members. Still, at least some of the old guilds did survive, as did their vocational training in some countries.
 
Unlikely if you keep the medieval organisation of guild. It's a very hierarchical organisation, more close to modern trusts that have social issues in order to kept the trade organized that unions.
Basically, it would maybe evolve like an union diriged by owners, so not very effective, and less interesting as patronizing or paternalism for business.

A history professor I had explained that guilds were much closer to modern professional societies (such as those composed of Doctors, Lawyers, Architects, Engineers, etc.) than unions.
 
Keeping guilds around, though with much less political power and no monopoly, shouldn't be too difficult. Turning them into labour unions is however, since guilds are essentially made up by small business owners and a guild representing employees, while possible, would not be a guild in any traditional sense and would have to be newly created rather than reformed from an existing one.
Not always. A lot of guilds represented people who were more akin to skilled laborers, such as masons and craftsmen. They tended to be contract laborers, rather than wage laborers though. But i could see under the right circumstances those guilds surviving.
 
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