AHC:Goryeo conquers the Jin Dynasty

[WhatIsAUserName]

It's a little more complicated than it seems.

One of the reasons that the Jin was able to conquer the Liao was because it negotiated with Goryeo first. Although Goryeo was able to retain its northwest border at the Amrok/Yalu river because it repelled initial invasions, then convinced the Liao, it found itself on the other side when they confronted the Jurchen.

After building a wall in order to prevent further invasions, Goryeo initially managed to seize territory north of the wall and set up nine fortresses in Jurchen territory. However, Goryeo aristocrats argued that they would be costly to maintain, so the Korean ruler offered the Jurchens an option to kneel and pray if they wanted their territory back. A significant amount did this, causing the recently conquered territory to be reverted. Only eight years later, they conquered the Liao, pushed the Song south of the Huai river, and founded the Jin dynasty.

Had Goryeo been more adamant in retaining its fortresses, it might have later found a reason to push north of the Amrok/Yalu and Duman/Tumen rivers, and eventually claim a significant portion of Manchuria. What happens after is open to speculation, because Goryeo, instead of the Jin, could have overthrown the Liao in optimal circumstances, which could have led to tense relations with the Song. Meanwhile, any POD after the Jin took over North China would be problematic, as the Jin rulers viewed themselves to be direct descendants of a Silla or Goryeo person who fled because of political strife. This meant that the Jin would have been less willing to invade Goryeo, and Goryeo would only have taken defensive actions as it did with the Liao. Some records do suggest that Goryeo probably had territory and a few fortresses in southern Manchuria, but it was most likely temporary and was in response to or to prevent an invasion.

On the other hand, the Liao was able to maintain a border with Goryeo after it conquered Balhae. Had Goryeo managed to convince the Liao that the former Balhae territory should be theirs by emphasizing cultural and linguistic relationships, they might have taken over a significant amount of southern Manchuria, but it would be hard to say how much, because Goryeo might not be able to pacify the population, and the Khitan would not have been happy with losing so much territory. Another possibility is for Balhae to repulse Khitan invasions, although because we have very limited information about the former state, it is hard to assume what they could have done in order to stay independent until it negotiated with Goryeo to form an alliance.

I don't see how Goryeo would have been able to take Liao territory: historically, the Liao probably suffered more setbacks from Goryeo than Song China, and Goryeo still agreed to become a Liao vassal after the Liao invasions were defeated. The Liao would probably be too strong.

I'm pretty sure the Liao conquered Bohai at the peak of Khitan strength, so that would also make it difficult for Bohai to survive.

EDIT: I've never heard that part about Goryeo and the Jin during the Liao conquest. Do you have a source? I'm pretty sure the reason the Jin didn't ever invade Goryeo was actually because Goryeo was a lot quicker to capitulate than they did with the Liao. I'm pretty sure this is also the reason Goryeo never initiated hostilities against the Jin, because they remembered how bad things got when the Khitans invaded.

 

[scholar]

One of the reasons that the Jin was able to conquer the Liao was because it negotiated with Goryeo first. Although Goryeo was able to retain its northwest border at the Amrok/Yalu river because it repelled initial invasions, then convinced the Liao, it found itself on the other side when they confronted the Jurchen.

All available evidence points to the Jin dominating the Korean Peninsula in a way not unlike other Chinese Dynasties. I can guarantee you that the Goryeo had no capacity to make any signfiicant gains against the Liao, and that the Jin had no need to do anything in regards to making arrangements with the Goryeo. If this is true, and I doubt it, then the arrangement was most likely merely to prevent an annoyance to the south that would have distracted Jin resources in an additional direction, slowing the pace of the Liao's fall. The Liao, however, was in no shape to resist a Jurchen invasion. A Korean one it could have done so. The most major reason is supplies, it is an absolute hell for any Korean army to be supported outside of Korea proper. It is further hell to move said army in the first place, and to reinforce it. The reason for Korea's occasional expansion into the Manchurian regions is either because Korea's capital was located at the border, expanding the lands it could reasonably be expected to administer, alongside an overall weakness of the Jurchens and Proto-Jurchens, or their narrowed focus on China in a state of civil war with itself.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Would there be repercutions to Japan? there was argued links between Yamato and the korean state(s)...

 

[scholar]

Would there be repercutions to Japan? there was argued links between Yamato and the korean state(s)...

Apart from butterflies? No. By the time Goryeo was formed Japan was already at its Heian period. Further, there is no evidence that Japanese-Baejke relations were ever more than an alliance with marital arrangements on both sides. Japan was far more dominated and influenced by Chinese culture than Korean. Korea itself was being influenced in profound ways by China as well.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Apart from butterflies? No. By the time Goryeo was formed Japan was already at its Heian period. Further, there is no evidence that Japanese-Baejke relations were ever more than an alliance with marital arrangements on both sides. Japan was far more dominated and influenced by Chinese culture than Korean. Korea itself was being influenced in profound ways by China as well.

Look like I picked the wrong era.

 

[democracy101]

I'm pretty sure the Liao conquered Bohai at the peak of Khitan strength, so that would also make it difficult for Bohai to survive.

You're probably right, but Balhae did request help from Silla and Goryeo. I don't know the specifics, but I'm assuming that if either state had decided to send soldiers to Balhae, it might have managed to hold out longer for a significant amount of time, or either southern state could have gained a foothold in southern Manchuria.

EDIT: I've never heard that part about Goryeo and the Jin during the Liao conquest. Do you have a source? I'm pretty sure the reason the Jin didn't ever invade Goryeo was actually because Goryeo was a lot quicker to capitulate than they did with the Liao. I'm pretty sure this is also the reason Goryeo never initiated hostilities against the Jin, because they remembered how bad things got when the Khitans invaded.

Here's an excerpt taken from the Goryeosa. The year referenced is 1108 (Yejong Year 4). I deduced the necessary parts from the Korean translation so I may be off, but it explains how the Jurchen talked about their ancestor's origin from Goryeo and the process of how the nine fortresses were returned to the Jurchen.

庚子 御宣政殿南門引見褭弗史顯等六人宣問來由 褭弗等奏曰 昔我太師盈歌嘗言 我祖宗出自大邦至于子孫義合歸附 今太師烏雅束亦以大邦爲父母之國 在. 甲申 年閒弓漢村人不順太師指諭者擧兵懲之國朝以我爲犯境出兵征之復許修好故我信之朝貢不絶 不謂去年大擧而入殺我耄倪置九城使流亡靡所止歸 故太師使我來請舊地若還許九城使安生業則我等告天爲誓至于世世子孫恪修世貢亦不敢以瓦礫投於境上 王慰諭賜酒食.

秋七月 乙巳 會宰樞及臺省諸司知制誥侍臣都兵馬判官以上文武三品以上于宣政殿宣問還九城可否皆奏曰可 丙午 御宣政殿南門引見褭弗等許還九城 褭弗感泣拜謝 王賜物遣還命內侍金珦護送境上仍詔元帥等諭以還九城之意.

丁巳 以中書侍郞平章事任懿權判東北面兵馬事兼行營兵馬使右諫議大夫金緣副之.

戊午 設盂蘭盆道場於長齡殿.

辛酉 行營兵馬別監承宣崔弘正兵馬使吏部尙書文冠諭女眞酋長居熨伊等曰 汝若請還九城宜如前約誓告于天 酋長等設壇咸州門外告天誓曰 而今已後至于九父之世無有惡心連連朝貢有渝此盟蕃土滅亡 盟訖而退 弘正等始自吉州以次收入九城戰具資粮于內地 狄人喜以其牛馬載還吾民遺棄老幼男女一無殺傷.

壬戌 任懿等辭王御重光殿親授鈇鉞仍賜鞍馬衣服彩段.

是日撤東界崇寧通泰二鎭城.

甲子 設消灾道場于乾德殿五日.

撤英福二州眞陽鎭城.

乙丑 以金商祐爲戶部尙書翰林學士 劉載爲左散騎常侍.

撤咸雄二州宣化鎭城.

All available evidence points to the Jin dominating the Korean Peninsula in a way not unlike other Chinese Dynasties. I can guarantee you that the Goryeo had no capacity to make any signfiicant gains against the Liao, and that the Jin had no need to do anything in regards to making arrangements with the Goryeo. If this is true, and I doubt it, then the arrangement was most likely merely to prevent an annoyance to the south that would have distracted Jin resources in an additional direction, slowing the pace of the Liao's fall. The Liao, however, was in no shape to resist a Jurchen invasion. A Korean one it could have done so. The most major reason is supplies, it is an absolute hell for any Korean army to be supported outside of Korea proper. It is further hell to move said army in the first place, and to reinforce it. The reason for Korea's occasional expansion into the Manchurian regions is either because Korea's capital was located at the border, expanding the lands it could reasonably be expected to administer, alongside an overall weakness of the Jurchens and Proto-Jurchens, or their narrowed focus on China in a state of civil war with itself.

Look at the above excerpt for the negotiations between Goryeo and the Jurchen.

I can see where you're coming from, but the problem with your reasoning is that Goryeo's capital was never near the border. It was located in Gaegyeong (Gaeseong), which is near Seoul, and Silla's capital was in Gyeongju, which is close to Busan, and was the southernmost Korean capital. The closest Goryeo came to moving the capital further north was in 1135, when a coup broke out because the government was divided on moving the capital to Seogyeong (Pyongyang), but it was quickly suppressed.

Goryeo also built fortresses in the areas that it had taken over, in which the two main examples are the six fortresses after the initial conflict with the Liao, and the nine that I previously mentioned, so they would have removed some of the logistical difficulties. I agree that it would have been almost impossible for Goryeo to overthrow either the Liao or the Jin, but had it managed to gradually push north and establish a significant amount of fortresses in southern Manchuria, it might have caused problems when the Jin tried to expand into China proper, or soon after.

Look like I picked the wrong era.

I think you confused Goguryeo with Goryeo, which is an acceptable mistake. It's actually ironic, though, because Goryeo was the official name for Goguryeo starting in 427.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

You're probably right, but Balhae did request help from Silla and Goryeo. I don't know the specifics, but I'm assuming that if either state had decided to send soldiers to Balhae, it might have managed to hold out longer for a significant amount of time, or either southern state could have gained a foothold in southern Manchuria.

Okay, maybe. I won't disagree there. It's possible, but it doesn't detract from the fact that the Liao were more powerful.

Here's an excerpt taken from the Goryeosa. The year referenced is 1108 (Yejong Year 4). I deduced the necessary parts from the Korean translation so I may be off, but it explains how the Jurchen talked about their ancestor's origin from Goryeo and the process of how the nine fortresses were returned to the Jurchen.

庚子 御宣政殿南門引見褭弗史顯等六人宣問來由 褭弗等奏曰 昔我太師盈歌嘗言 我祖宗出自大邦至于子孫義合歸附 今太師烏雅束亦以大邦爲父母之國 在. 甲申 年閒弓漢村人不順太師指諭者擧兵懲之國朝以我爲犯境出兵征之復許修好故我信之朝貢不絶 不謂去年大擧而入殺我耄倪置九城使流亡靡所止歸 故太師使我來請舊地若還許九城使安生業則我等告天爲誓至于世世子孫恪修世貢亦不敢以瓦礫投於境上 王慰諭賜酒食.

秋七月 乙巳 會宰樞及臺省諸司知制誥侍臣都兵馬判官以上文武三品以上于宣政殿宣問還九城可否皆奏曰可 丙午 御宣政殿南門引見褭弗等許還九城 褭弗感泣拜謝 王賜物遣還命內侍金珦護送境上仍詔元帥等諭以還九城之意.

丁巳 以中書侍郞平章事任懿權判東北面兵馬事兼行營兵馬使右諫議大夫金緣副之.

戊午 設盂蘭盆道場於長齡殿.

辛酉 行營兵馬別監承宣崔弘正兵馬使吏部尙書文冠諭女眞酋長居熨伊等曰 汝若請還九城宜如前約誓告于天 酋長等設壇咸州門外告天誓曰 而今已後至于九父之世無有惡心連連朝貢有渝此盟蕃土滅亡 盟訖而退 弘正等始自吉州以次收入九城戰具資粮于內地 狄人喜以其牛馬載還吾民遺棄老幼男女一無殺傷.

壬戌 任懿等辭王御重光殿親授鈇鉞仍賜鞍馬衣服彩段.

是日撤東界崇寧通泰二鎭城.

甲子 設消灾道場于乾德殿五日.

撤英福二州眞陽鎭城.

乙丑 以金商祐爲戶部尙書翰林學士 劉載爲左散騎常侍.

撤咸雄二州宣化鎭城.



Look at the above excerpt for the negotiations between Goryeo and the Jurchen.

It will be a long, long time before my Chinese becomes good enough to read that. I'm not disagreeing about the story of how a founder of the Wanyan tribe came from Goryeo. I have heard that story, and I'm aware. (Whether it happened is different of course. Forgive me if I take founding legends with a grain of salt, especially when they're passed through orally for two hundred years before being recorded.) My other point was that the Jin was stronger than Goryeo too: they didn't need to invade, and that's why relations happened to involve so much less bloodshed than the wars with the Liao. I would attribute the transfer of the fortresses (I've never heard of this, but I'm not going to doubt it) to such strength, not some feeling of unity between the Goryeo court and the Jin court.

I can see where you're coming from, but the problem with your reasoning is that Goryeo's capital was never near the border. It was located in Gaegyeong (Gaeseong), which is near Seoul, and Silla's capital was in Gyeongju, which is close to Busan, and was the southernmost Korean capital. The closest Goryeo came to moving the capital further north was in 1135, when a coup broke out because the government was divided on moving the capital to Seogyeong (Pyongyang), but it was quickly suppressed.

Goryeo also built fortresses in the areas that it had taken over, in which the two main examples are the six fortresses after the initial conflict with the Liao, and the nine that I previously mentioned, so they would have removed some of the logistical difficulties. I agree that it would have been almost impossible for Goryeo to overthrow either the Liao or the Jin, but had it managed to gradually push north and establish a significant amount of fortresses in southern Manchuria, it might have caused problems when the Jin tried to expand into China proper, or soon after.

To be fair, didn't the Khitan Liao take the Goryeo capital once? Even if it's not right by the Yalu, the capital is still close enough to be invaded easily.

 

[democracy101]

Okay, maybe. I won't disagree there. It's possible, but it doesn't detract from the fact that the Liao were more powerful.

I agree with your reasoning as well.

It will be a long, long time before my Chinese becomes good enough to read that. I'm not disagreeing about the story of how a founder of the Wanyan tribe came from Goryeo. I have heard that story, and I'm aware. (Whether it happened is different of course. Forgive me if I take founding legends with a grain of salt, especially when they're passed through orally for two hundred years before being recorded.) My other point was that the Jin was stronger than Goryeo too: they didn't need to invade, and that's why relations happened to involve so much less bloodshed than the wars with the Liao. I would attribute the transfer of the fortresses (I've never heard of this, but I'm not going to doubt it) to such strength, not some feeling of unity between the Goryeo court and the Jin court.

I'm not saying that the legend is necessarily true either, and the Jurchen could have made it up in order to negotiate with Goryeo. However, the fact is that both Korean and Jurchen sources recorded the legend, which suggests that the relationship between the Jin and Goryeo could have been complicated enough to prevent major conflicts. I also agree that the Jin was much more powerful than Goryeo by the time that it had defeated the Song, but I'm assuming that in ideal conditions, Goryeo could have prevented the Jin from establishing a powerful empire.

The Jin dynasty was also set up seven years after the fortresses were returned, and it would take another six years for them to drive out the Liao by allying with the Song, then turn on their ally four years later. In other words, the series of events was possible in part due to conducting a truce with Goryeo. In other words, had Goryeo been more adamant in retaining the fortresses, it might have been harder for the Jurchen to carry out their plans effectively. However, I agree that by the time the Jin dynasty had established itself in northern China, it would have been too late for Goryeo to take offensive action.

I'm not sure if there is an English translation or explanation for the source, but I honestly feel that the fact that the Jurchens would have to go to such an extent raises some interesting questions. One of the reasons that the Liao failed to advance into China proper was because it was exhausted after it faced Goryeo, although Goryeo was weakened as well. As a result, there is the possibility that the Jurchens decided to settle matters with Goryeo first before attempting to attack the Liao and the Song.

To be fair, didn't the Khitan Liao take the Goryeo capital once? Even if it's not right by the Yalu, the capital is still close enough to be invaded easily.

I looked into it, and the Liao did invade the capital during the second invasion. However, the invaders ignored the other fortresses on the way, which eventually caused them to withdraw because of supply issues after the other Goryeo forces cut them off.

However, Scholar was stating that it was hard for Goryeo to supply troops far from the capital, while my reasoning was that setting up fortresses in border regions mostly negated these issues. In other words, my assumption was that if Goryeo had retained the nine fortresses, then it might have expanded north before the Jurchen either established a state or conquered the Liao.

 

[scholar]

I can see where you're coming from, but the problem with your reasoning is that Goryeo's capital was never near the border. It was located in Gaegyeong (Gaeseong), which is near Seoul, and Silla's capital was in Gyeongju, which is close to Busan, and was the southernmost Korean capital. The closest Goryeo came to moving the capital further north was in 1135, when a coup broke out because the government was divided on moving the capital to Seogyeong (Pyongyang), but it was quickly suppressed.

That's kind of my point, Goryeo was not in a position to actively expand into Liao, nor the Jurchens, because its center of governance was too far south. They would have had an easier time of it to if the center of governance was in the north, but even then the likelihood of them being able to conquer or even hold part of Liao or the Jurchens is low as long as the Jurchens are a stable military force. This means that the arrangement between the two forces would largely be diplomatic and not out of serious military considerations.

Goryeo also built fortresses in the areas that it had taken over, in which the two main examples are the six fortresses after the initial conflict with the Liao, and the nine that I previously mentioned, so they would have removed some of the logistical difficulties. I agree that it would have been almost impossible for Goryeo to overthrow either the Liao or the Jin, but had it managed to gradually push north and establish a significant amount of fortresses in southern Manchuria, it might have caused problems when the Jin tried to expand into China proper, or soon after.

Border fortresses are not designed in mind to support long-distance campaigns, nor would they adequately solve the problem of supplies. Getting supplies to the forts in order keep the men fed is one thing, creating a large network of supply trains in order to feed a mobile and extensive Korean army that would be needed in order to conquer/besiege walled cities and fortresses dozens, if not hundreds, of miles away is an entirely different issue. Much of the food would either need to be cultivated locally or on the campaign trail in order for this to have much success, and that only makes them far more vulnerable. Meanwhile taking them mostly from Korea proper would create large and unweildy supply lines that would be easily disrupted and overburdened in order to feed the troops at the front. Delays would be common place and depending on the size of the army a delay of a few days can ruin the entirety of a campaign. This issue is not present with the Jurchens, nor is it present in the Song.

Part of the reason why Korea formed the way it did in OTL was because of the natural defensive barriers that make it easier to defend Korea from the outside, but the very reason that makes Korea difficult to attack makes it difficult to attack from. This is why Korea normally never ventured far into Manchuria and when it did it was normally because the Jurchens, Proto-Jurchens, and the Chinese were in a very weakened state. So long as the Jurchens or the Song remains strong it is unlikely the Goryeo state would make it far into Manchuria, let alone capture the 16 districts of China that Liao held a portion of. Fortresses, while making the supply lines a bit easier to make, does not negate the primary reasons why the campaign would be unwieldy.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

I'm not saying that the legend is necessarily true either, and the Jurchen could have made it up in order to negotiate with Goryeo. However, the fact is that both Korean and Jurchen sources recorded the legend, which suggests that the relationship between the Jin and Goryeo could have been complicated enough to prevent major conflicts. I also agree that the Jin was much more powerful than Goryeo by the time that it had defeated the Song, but I'm assuming that in ideal conditions, Goryeo could have prevented the Jin from establishing a powerful empire.

The Jin dynasty was also set up seven years after the fortresses were returned, and it would take another six years for them to drive out the Liao by allying with the Song, then turn on their ally four years later. In other words, the series of events was possible in part due to conducting a truce with Goryeo. In other words, had Goryeo been more adamant in retaining the fortresses, it might have been harder for the Jurchen to carry out their plans effectively. However, I agree that by the time the Jin dynasty had established itself in northern China, it would have been too late for Goryeo to take offensive action.

I'm not sure if there is an English translation or explanation for the source, but I honestly feel that the fact that the Jurchens would have to go to such an extent raises some interesting questions. One of the reasons that the Liao failed to advance into China proper was because it was exhausted after it faced Goryeo, although Goryeo was weakened as well. As a result, there is the possibility that the Jurchens decided to settle matters with Goryeo first before attempting to attack the Liao and the Song.

Okay, I don't disagree with the possibility, and I'll leave it there. I'm not one of the people on this forum who think that, given a certain POD, events must turn out a specific way. Wanyan Aguda was a good leader, but I don't know how he might have handled Goryeo mucking things up. Any little thing that went wrong could spell larger trouble for him and the Jurchens. Nobody knows how history can turn out.

However, and because I don't have good sources at hand (I rarely do), I have to find myself a bit skeptical about the Korean and Jurchen sources part. A bit of Wiki research (Wikipedia isn't really research, I know) shows that the History of Jin 金史, which is the Chinese source for the Hanpu legend of the Jurchens, was written by a certain Mongol, Tuotuo if you use the Chinese pronunciation, during the Yuan, while the Goryeosa was written under Sejong of Joseon, much later. Is it possible that the Hanpu legend's presence in the latter is due to its presence in the former? That's why I couldn't find Hanpu mentioned in Jurchen sources. After all, it's customary that when a dynasty falls, the next one writes its history. Therefore, it seems that the Hanpu legend might have been written down under the Mongols, and then transmitted again to the Koreans.

I think I already mentioned something similar, about the soldiers from Northern Wei being defeated by the soldiers of Paekche, and how it was referenced in the Samguk Sagi, but likely because it cites the same story, which is found in the earlier Zizhi Tongjian that the former uses repeatedly.

However, Scholar was stating that it was hard for Goryeo to supply troops far from the capital, while my reasoning was that setting up fortresses in border regions mostly negated these issues. In other words, my assumption was that if Goryeo had retained the nine fortresses, then it might have expanded north before the Jurchen either established a state or conquered the Liao.

Alright, just a question, I know Goryeo had a border wall along the Yalu (but I've also seen maps where the Liao control the mouth of the Yalu, probably a different story). Where where these fortresses? Where they part of the border wall, or where they north or south of the Yalu River?

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

That's kind of my point, Goryeo was not in a position to actively expand into Liao, nor the Jurchens, because its center of governance was too far south. They would have had an easier time of it to if the center of governance was in the north, but even then the likelihood of them being able to conquer or even hold part of Liao or the Jurchens is low as long as the Jurchens are a stable military force. This means that the arrangement between the two forces would largely be diplomatic and not out of serious military considerations.

Border fortresses are not designed in mind to support long-distance campaigns, nor would they adequately solve the problem of supplies. Getting supplies to the forts in order keep the men fed is one thing, creating a large network of supply trains in order to feed a mobile and extensive Korean army that would be needed in order to conquer/besiege walled cities and fortresses dozens, if not hundreds, of miles away is an entirely different issue. Much of the food would either need to be cultivated locally or on the campaign trail in order for this to have much success, and that only makes them far more vulnerable. Meanwhile taking them mostly from Korea proper would create large and unweildy supply lines that would be easily disrupted and overburdened in order to feed the troops at the front. Delays would be common place and depending on the size of the army a delay of a few days can ruin the entirety of a campaign. This issue is not present with the Jurchens, nor is it present in the Song.

Part of the reason why Korea formed the way it did in OTL was because of the natural defensive barriers that make it easier to defend Korea from the outside, but the very reason that makes Korea difficult to attack makes it difficult to attack from. This is why Korea normally never ventured far into Manchuria and when it did it was normally because the Jurchens, Proto-Jurchens, and the Chinese were in a very weakened state. So long as the Jurchens or the Song remains strong it is unlikely the Goryeo state would make it far into Manchuria, let alone capture the 16 districts of China that Liao held a portion of. Fortresses, while making the supply lines a bit easier to make, does not negate the primary reasons why the campaign would be unwieldy.

I'll be honest, sometimes I skim posts, but from what Democracy101 said, I thought he was talking about a Goryeo invasion of the North that disrupts the formation of the Jin Dynasty and acquires a bit of territory, just at the time when the Jin Dynasty is on the rise and the Liao Dynasty is on the decline. I'm not saying it's likely, but Goryeo extending its borders a bit north of the Yalu during this chaotic time period doesn't seem impossible.

I'm pretty sure Democracy101 never said anything about Goryeo taking the Sixteen Prefectures. That would be ridiculous.

 

[democracy101]

That's kind of my point, Goryeo was not in a position to actively expand into Liao, nor the Jurchens, because its center of governance was too far south. They would have had an easier time of it to if the center of governance was in the north, but even then the likelihood of them being able to conquer or even hold part of Liao or the Jurchens is low as long as the Jurchens are a stable military force. This means that the arrangement between the two forces would largely be diplomatic and not out of serious military considerations.

I thought you meant that Goryeo actually had a capital near the border, but I agree with what you're saying here.

Border fortresses are not designed in mind to support long-distance campaigns, nor would they adequately solve the problem of supplies. Getting supplies to the forts in order keep the men fed is one thing, creating a large network of supply trains in order to feed a mobile and extensive Korean army that would be needed in order to conquer/besiege walled cities and fortresses dozens, if not hundreds, of miles away is an entirely different issue. Much of the food would either need to be cultivated locally or on the campaign trail in order for this to have much success, and that only makes them far more vulnerable. Meanwhile taking them mostly from Korea proper would create large and unweildy supply lines that would be easily disrupted and overburdened in order to feed the troops at the front. Delays would be common place and depending on the size of the army a delay of a few days can ruin the entirety of a campaign. This issue is not present with the Jurchens, nor is it present in the Song.

Part of the reason why Korea formed the way it did in OTL was because of the natural defensive barriers that make it easier to defend Korea from the outside, but the very reason that makes Korea difficult to attack makes it difficult to attack from. This is why Korea normally never ventured far into Manchuria and when it did it was normally because the Jurchens, Proto-Jurchens, and the Chinese were in a very weakened state. So long as the Jurchens or the Song remains strong it is unlikely the Goryeo state would make it far into Manchuria, let alone capture the 16 districts of China that Liao held a portion of. Fortresses, while making the supply lines a bit easier to make, does not negate the primary reasons why the campaign would be unwieldy.

I'm going to assume that you didn't read my more recent post, so I'm just going to summarize briefly. I'm not saying that Goryeo had the capacity to expand far into Liao or Jin territory, but rather that had Goryeo managed to weaken the Jurchen before the Jin dynasty was established, then it would have been harder for the latter to carry out their invasions of the Liao and the Song. It would have been too late for Goryeo to carry out offensive attacks against the Jin once they pushed the Song south of the Huai River.

Okay, I don't disagree with the possibility, and I'll leave it there. I'm not one of the people on this forum who think that, given a certain POD, events must turn out a specific way. Wanyan Aguda was a good leader, but I don't know how he might have handled Goryeo mucking things up. Any little thing that went wrong could spell larger trouble for him and the Jurchens. Nobody knows how history can turn out.

Well, it was just a suggestion. I'm glad you understand.

However, and because I don't have good sources at hand (I rarely do), I have to find myself a bit skeptical about the Korean and Jurchen sources part. A bit of Wiki research (Wikipedia isn't really research, I know) shows that the History of Jin 金史, which is the Chinese source for the Hanpu legend of the Jurchens, was written by a certain Mongol, Tuotuo if you use the Chinese pronunciation, during the Yuan, while the Goryeosa was written under Sejong of Joseon, much later. Is it possible that the Hanpu legend's presence in the latter is due to its presence in the former? That's why I couldn't find Hanpu mentioned in Jurchen sources. After all, it's customary that when a dynasty falls, the next one writes its history. Therefore, it seems that the Hanpu legend might have been written down under the Mongols, and then transmitted again to the Koreans.

I think I already mentioned something similar, about the soldiers from Northern Wei being defeated by the soldiers of Paekche, and how it was referenced in the Samguk Sagi, but likely because it cites the same story, which is found in the earlier Zizhi Tongjian that the former uses repeatedly.

Again, you might be right. However, I looked at the Korean Wikipedia's info on Hanpu, and it stated that because his origin was listed as Goryeo, he could have been a Mohe/Jurchen, but from the northeastern part of the Korean peninsula. The Manchus also emphasized the common lineage between itself and Joseon, so unless they completely forgot about their history and solely looked at the History of Jin for reference, they also recognized the legend.

Alright, just a question, I know Goryeo had a border wall along the Yalu (but I've also seen maps where the Liao control the mouth of the Yalu, probably a different story). Where where these fortresses? Where they part of the border wall, or where they north or south of the Yalu River?

If I remember correctly, the six fortresses after repulsing the Khitan were near the mouth of the Yalu, but south of the border. The nine that were handed back to the Jurchen were northeast of the border, but south of the Tumen River.

 

[scholar]

I'm going to assume that you didn't read my more recent post, so I'm just going to summarize briefly. I'm not saying that Goryeo had the capacity to expand far into Liao or Jin territory, but rather that had Goryeo managed to weaken the Jurchen before the Jin dynasty was established, then it would have been harder for the latter to carry out their invasions of the Liao and the Song. It would have been too late for Goryeo to carry out offensive attacks against the Jin once they pushed the Song south of the Huai River.

Correct, I had not read your other posts. Only catching the glimpse of them as I hit the "quote" button.

Even before the Jin Dynasty was proclaimed the Jurchens had a sizable force, which had been strong decades before it engaged in conflicts with the Liao. I'm not saying its impossible for the Koreans to have been able to expand into Manchuria, I infact stated that all it really would have needed was the Jurchens to be weak and disunited with the Chinese in no position to counteract them. This control wouldn't have been strong and it can easily be lost if either of the two parties become strong enough and focused enough to combat the Goryeo influence. This I will never dispute.

My dispute comes with the Goryeo having the capacity to conquer either the Liao or the Jin in its entirety and hold onto it, which can never happen with the Korean state. The only way a Korean state could even have the slight possibility of holding onto the region would be for the Song to collapse and the Korean capital to be moved into China.

Now that I think about it, we really aren't disagreeing with each other, are we?

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Again, you might be right. However, I looked at the Korean Wikipedia's info on Hanpu, and it stated that because his origin was listed as Goryeo, he could have been a Mohe/Jurchen, but from the northeastern part of the Korean peninsula. The Manchus also emphasized the common lineage between itself and Joseon, so unless they completely forgot about their history and solely looked at the History of Jin for reference, they also recognized the legend.

I see, but remember, the Jurchens were not founded by Hanpu. It was only the Wanyan ruling clan of the Jin that said they were descended from Hanpu. The story was that there were already Jurchens, and when Hanpu came, some circumstances occurred, and the Jurchens made Hanpu their chieftain. Wanyan Aguda would be the sixth-generation descendant of him, but not all Jurchens would be. I assume that the Aisin Gioro, a different Jurchen clan, would not have the same history. Wanyan and Aisin Gioro and Manchu and Jurchen are all technically different things.

I briefly did some research, and I couldn't find anything indicating that the Manchus emphasized a common lineage with Koreans. In contrast, I could find plenty of sources discussing Jurchen conflicts with (and occasional submission to) Korea even before the rise of the Manchus. Do you have anything more specific or any good online sources.

If I remember correctly, the six fortresses after repulsing the Khitan were near the mouth of the Yalu, but south of the border. The nine that were handed back to the Jurchen were northeast of the border, but south of the Tumen River.

Yes, that would make sense.

EDIT: To be honest, given the lack of information on even people as famous as Nurhaci, I think it might be a possibility that the later Jurchens forgot about the legend or their origins.

 

[democracy101]

Correct, I had not read your other posts. Only catching the glimpse of them as I hit the "quote" button.

Even before the Jin Dynasty was proclaimed the Jurchens had a sizable force, which had been strong decades before it engaged in conflicts with the Liao. I'm not saying its impossible for the Koreans to have been able to expand into Manchuria, I infact stated that all it really would have needed was the Jurchens to be weak and disunited with the Chinese in no position to counteract them. This control wouldn't have been strong and it can easily be lost if either of the two parties become strong enough and focused enough to combat the Goryeo influence. This I will never dispute.

So I guess that Goryeo holding onto the nine fortresses would partially fulfill this criteria.

My dispute comes with the Goryeo having the capacity to conquer either the Liao or the Jin in its entirety and hold onto it, which can never happen with the Korean state. The only way a Korean state could even have the slight possibility of holding onto the region would be for the Song to collapse and the Korean capital to be moved into China.

I will admit that I was extremely vague on my first post on this thread, because I was trying to cover all of the possibilities. Having said that, however, I agree that the most likely possibility would be Goryeo temporarily or permanently holding onto some territory in southern Manchuria, which could have weakened the Jurchen to a degree.

Now that I think about it, we really aren't disagreeing with each other, are we?

Yes, it seems like it.

I see, but remember, the Jurchens were not founded by Hanpu. It was only the Wanyan ruling clan of the Jin that said they were descended from Hanpu. The story was that there were already Jurchens, and when Hanpu came, some circumstances occurred, and the Jurchens made Hanpu their chieftain. Wanyan Aguda would be the sixth-generation descendant of him, but not all Jurchens would be. I assume that the Aisin Gioro, a different Jurchen clan, would not have the same history. Wanyan and Aisin Gioro and Manchu and Jurchen are all technically different things.

I briefly did some research, and I couldn't find anything indicating that the Manchus emphasized a common lineage with Koreans. In contrast, I could find plenty of sources discussing Jurchen conflicts with (and occasional submission to) Korea even before the rise of the Manchus. Do you have anything more specific or any good online sources.

EDIT: To be honest, given the lack of information on even people as famous as Nurhaci, I think it might be a possibility that the later Jurchens forgot about the legend or their origins.

I agree with your reasoning. I guess I'll have to look more into it.