AHC: Give the Papal State Colonies

You heard right: give the Papal state colonies. I don't know how you could do it, but here are the guidelines:

1) They can be anywhere but in the Mediterranean.
2) They can be de facto or de jure.
3) They must be considered to be, either de facto or de jure, a part of the Papal State.
 
You heard right: give the Papal state colonies. I don't know how you could do it, but here are the guidelines:

1) They can be anywhere but in the Mediterranean.
2) They can be de facto or de jure.
3) They must be considered to be, either de facto or de jure, a part of the Papal State.
Would colonies of Holy Orders like the Hospitallers be considered a de jure part of the Papal States?
 

Abhakhazia

Banned
I know the Spanish gave territory to German banking families who they had outstanding debts with (Venezuela was once owned by the Welsers). Maybe if the Crown owes the Papacy a lot of money a similar strategy could be employed?
 

ben0628

Banned
You heard right: give the Papal state colonies. I don't know how you could do it, but here are the guidelines:

1) They can be anywhere but in the Mediterranean.
2) They can be de facto or de jure.
3) They must be considered to be, either de facto or de jure, a part of the Papal State.

I could see crusader states being colonies, but they are in the Mediterranean. Maybe if the Papal States can be the ones who unify Italy, I coul see them being a colonial power outside the Mediterranean. Either that or have the pope flee Rome and live in Portugal or something.
 
I know the Spanish gave territory to German banking families who they had outstanding debts with (Venezuela was once owned by the Welsers). Maybe if the Crown owes the Papacy a lot of money a similar strategy could be employed?

What would happen if the Pope demanded a Catholic monarch cede a colony to him...?
 
Purchasing, seizing, or being gifted one of the smaller caribbean or atlantic islands seems possible, even with very little divergence from OTL. Perhaps a very catholic and very wealthy ruler of Spain gifts a sugar island to the Holy Father on his birthday or the anniversary of the completion of the reconquista, and in gratitude for the Pope's affirmation of the Spanish-Portuguese personal union.

More substantial colonies would require a more substantial papal state. Have one of the Popes successfully reform the feudal mess into something governable, and then expand in Italy. In the 15th century the Pope granted Naples and Sicily to Aragon, perhaps Naples could have instead been annexed. Florence and some of the other small Italian states were occasionally de facto vassals of the Pope, these could presumably have been formalized, especially if the relationship between the Holy Roman Empire, Italy, and the Papacy changes.

With Italy under Papal control by 1600-1700 they're in as good a position to colonize as the Netherlands, and better than OTL Germany. They could establish forts on the African coast, as bases for military and commercial navies and for missionary work. They might get Patagonia or some islands, anything else in the Americas seems unlikely unless with a very early POD and largely unrecognizable world. They could eventually establish further bases in SE asia. I expect their colonies further from home wouldn't be very large, and they wouldn't try to compete with more powerful states for control of places like India or Australia.

With improved medicine and the colonizable parts of the world running out around 1900 we might see some larger Holy Protectorates. Rome is in as good or better position to take vast swaths of the Sahara as Paris is. The previously mentioned bases will be the start of larger colonies in Sub Saharan Africa, and the Papacy might get additional benefit from Catholic missionaries based in other state's colonies claiming land on behalf of the Pope rather than their monarch.

Finally, perhaps if a colonizing nation converts to a different religion than catholicism, and then loses a war, perhaps they might have to cede some of their colonies to the Pope. A protestant Portugal giving Brazil to the Pope because Spain, France, and England don't want each other to have it would be interesting.
 

ben0628

Banned
Maybe during the race for Africa, The main reasoning behind colonization becomes "spreading the faith to the savages" and the Catholic Church is given complete control while allowing allowing French/Spanish/and Portuguese businesses inside the colonies with their own security forces. So the Pope would have nominal (but not real) control of Catholic Africa.
 
Speaking of the subject,my lecturer in a history subject believes that the Spanish and Portuguese colonies were more or less a condominium between the Spanish/Portuguese Government and the Papacy given how much influence the Church has in the colonies.
 
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I have this vague idea of the Kingdom of Congo becoming a Papal protectorate in the xvii century or early xviii century, maybe this woman could become a sort of African Joan d'Arc. Another possibility would be a Congo Free State equivalent (meaning a "private", in this case missionary, colony) in the late XIX century maybe if the Papal States have not been gobbled up by Italy and the Belgian scheme for Congo doesn't come to pass.
 
Speaking of the subject,my lecturer in a history subject believes that the Spanish and Colonies were more or less a condominium between the Spanish/Portuguese Government and the Papacy given how much influence the Church has in the colonies.

Yes - thats the PoD I would use. Have the treaty of Tordesillas be more of a Papal mandate to administer colonies rather than an allocation of actual territory. Difficult to achieve given the relatively military strengths of the Papal States vs the Iberian powers but maybe if France was involved earlier in exploration you end up with almost a League of Nations style arrangement where technically the colonising powers only hold the land in trust until the indigenous population are brought into the Catholic church..
 
If the Papal State somehow turned the Crusader States into a series of subservient holy orders (that would be awesome IMO) - and this extended to the Sinai, it could begin to colonise out east. Much more likely IMO than randomly colonising to the west, after all - the Papal States is not a gold-hungry monarchy *cough*splutter*MY-TEA!*cough*.

Religious Missions combined with trade missions out that way, with the various religious orders expanding under Papal Jurisdiction sounds cool. Although they would be Religious/Economic colonies rather than Settler colonies (besides perhaps Latin as an administrative language).

Would be an interesting timeline. Especially if the subservient Orders military arms were exclusively fighting defensive/provoked affairs.
 
You heard right: give the Papal state colonies. I don't know how you could do it, but here are the guidelines:

1) They can be anywhere but in the Mediterranean.
2) They can be de facto or de jure.
3) They must be considered to be, either de facto or de jure, a part of the Papal State.
You heard right: give the Papal state colonies. I don't know how you could do it, but here are the guidelines:

1) They can be anywhere but in the Mediterranean.
2) They can be de facto or de jure.
3) They must be considered to be, either de facto or de jure, a part of the Papal State.

There was an idea in the 19th century of some french bishops to create a papal colony in New Caledonia (according Wesselings book Indie verloren rampspoed geboren 1988)
But I like the idea of a papal Congo freestate instead of a playyard for Leopold of Belgium
 
I know the Spanish gave territory to German banking families who they had outstanding debts with (Venezuela was once owned by the Welsers). Maybe if the Crown owes the Papacy a lot of money a similar strategy could be employed?

They give Venezuela to the Fuggers, a very rich banking family, who lend the bribe for Karl´s V. election as Holy Roman Emperor.
 
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