AHC: Give Islam A Pope Equivalent

PhilippeO

Banned
Young Turks didn't abolish Caliph titles, but allow Ottomans to retain it ? posssibly move the Caliphs to some unimportant island ? or Antakya ?

or have some Indian Muslims or British government recognize Hashimite claims as Caliph as valid after the fall of Ottoman ?
 
A pope is a lot more than a titular figurehead - IIRC there has never been an equivalent doctrine in Islam to the Magisterium, giving Caliphs the authority to lay down infallible doctrine that all muslims are (theoretically at least) obliged to abide by. I suspect getting something like this will be a lot harder than merely arranging for a titular figurehead and will require a POD much closer to the founding of Islam.
 
Give Islam an equivalent to the Pope.

Not really all that possible, especially the Grand Imam equivalent.

To have a Pope equivalent, you would need a priesthood which Islam lacks. The priests, bishops, and Pope play a role within the theology of Catholicism (that of intercessor) while Imams do not.

The closest I assume you could get would be for Mohammed`s sons to survive and a more dominant form of Shiism developing rather than Sunnis achieving dominance. Thus keep the Caliphate within one family line that still gets rather sidelined... say by the Turkish invasions.

The Caliphal family loses all power after one or two goes at Empire, but they are very entrenched so nobody gets rid of them. They are then relegated to a Holy City where the dominant power can keep an eye/leash on them.

While a big power is in control, the family stays in Jerusalem. Then, when the area fractures, some enterprising family member moves the family back to Mecca/Medina where they then rule the Hedjaz more autonomously, but still being forced to pay homage to whoever currently is top dog.

The family is still the titular head of the Muslim role, and they play a massive role in Islamic jurisprudence, but that is about the extent of their influence. Still not very Pope-like but thats as close as I can think of. With a POD right at the founding, your going to be dealing with a rather different Islam to what we are familiar with.
 
Not really all that possible, especially the Grand Imam equivalent.

To have a Pope equivalent, you would need a priesthood which Islam lacks. The priests, bishops, and Pope play a role within the theology of Catholicism (that of intercessor) while Imams do not.

The closest I assume you could get would be for Mohammed`s sons to survive and a more dominant form of Shiism developing rather than Sunnis achieving dominance. Thus keep the Caliphate within one family line that still gets rather sidelined... say by the Turkish invasions.

The Caliphal family loses all power after one or two goes at Empire, but they are very entrenched so nobody gets rid of them. They are then relegated to a Holy City where the dominant power can keep an eye/leash on them.

While a big power is in control, the family stays in Jerusalem. Then, when the area fractures, some enterprising family member moves the family back to Mecca/Medina where they then rule the Hedjaz more autonomously, but still being forced to pay homage to whoever currently is top dog.

The family is still the titular head of the Muslim role, and they play a massive role in Islamic jurisprudence, but that is about the extent of their influence. Still not very Pope-like but thats as close as I can think of. With a POD right at the founding, your going to be dealing with a rather different Islam to what we are familiar with.

sounds sort of like the Japanese Emperor with legislative/Canon Law power.
 

Lunarwolf

Banned
Not really all that possible, especially the Grand Imam equivalent.

To have a Pope equivalent, you would need a priesthood which Islam lacks. The priests, bishops, and Pope play a role within the theology of Catholicism (that of intercessor) while Imams do not.

It's not possible with Sunni Islam, Shia Islam around and after Hussayn however makes it quite possible, so perhaps a POD at Karbala could do it.
 

jahenders

Banned
To get there, I think a succession of Mohammad's sons/bloodline is the most likely thing, which would change some of the early splits and subsequent writings.

If Islam did have a pope-esque figure, it could have lots of different implications.

I've always thought that it would be better for the Western World if there was some such that could keep most of the other Islamic clerics in line. So, instead of any cleric of significance in the Arab World deciding to issue a fatwa or jihad, only that one guy could do it. He could have authority to declare things good/bad with some pull across Islam. So, a single voice saying whether terrorism is good/bad, whether slaughtering school children is good bad, girls learning good/bad, etc. If he's even reasonably moderate, he could be an improvement. If he's an evil maniac, then he's a focal point for evil and, perhaps, he's accidently killed in a mistaken drone raid.
 

Lunarwolf

Banned
To get there, I think a succession of Mohammad's sons/bloodline is the most likely thing, which would change some of the early splits and subsequent writings. *snip*

Yea, hate to point it out to you, but even if the guy in question was an evil megalomaniac, Drone strikes is about the last thing you'll want to do, as murdering a legitimate religious leader never ends well. Poison is your best bet at that point.

That said the Fatimid bloodline is about the only none POD hope for this, them being the only actual descendants of the Prophet.

Alternatively if Mohammads sons live past childhood, it'd be one hell of a problem for the Ummayad, Abbasid or Fatimid branches of the family to claim the Caliphate, most likely the Caliphates would have been recorded in history as Qasimid, Tahirid or Ibrahimid. Most likely Shiite Islam if it existed past this POD would have been centered around Qasim not Ali.
 

Kosta

Banned
A pope is a lot more than a titular figurehead - IIRC there has never been an equivalent doctrine in Islam to the Magisterium, giving Caliphs the authority to lay down infallible doctrine that all muslims are (theoretically at least) obliged to abide by. I suspect getting something like this will be a lot harder than merely arranging for a titular figurehead and will require a POD much closer to the founding of Islam.

There actually is an equivalent, although by Second Occultation, the point is moot. According to the Ahadith of Two Weighty Matters as well as Mohammad's sermon at the Oasis of Ghadir Khumm, the Ahl al-Bayt (progeny of Mohammad, and his cousin and son-in-law Ali in particular) cannot sin and cannot err; their word is infallible. Mohammad, it is said, knew the outward interpretation of the Quran as well as the infinite, inward interpretations of the Quran. He was said to have passed this down to Ali.

Perhaps you could continue the line of Mohammad past the Twelfth Imam and keep the position going to this day?
 
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