AHC: Give Brazil a larger role in the World Wars

[Gukpard]

I am assuming most of them would be used as garrison and auxiliaries, but part of it would find itself in the Western Front meat grinder. I don't think the Portuguese were in a much better situation regarding manpower quality, and they sent 55,000 soldiers to the French frontlines.

We agree on this point

I don't know enough to say it would ruin the war effort, but it would sure be at least a big hindrance. Harsher repression of the strike? I'd say so. Depending on how it ends, Anarchism does not get discredited among factory workers as in OTL.

It would since it would spread the narrative of brazilians dying on a foreign war for the brazilian landowning elites to wing some concessions. While there is not a socialist revolution coming (in part due the large unliteracy that makes difficult for worker's to even know who marx is), they can cross their arms and keep fighting the police and the army for months, or things could spirral out of control and ends like the Patagonia tragica in Argentina with death squads helping the government to shot down the rebellious worker's.

The key for more concessions after WWII is a bit more cynical than earlier entry in the war(although it plays a part); it's more men at the frontlines, presence in more frontlines and battles, more casualties. Unfortunately, the only way I can see Brazil getting more than it got is by paying for it in blood, lots of it.

I don't believe on that. There is no way the US is keeping their word on the permanent seat on the security concil and there was no backlash on the brazilian side for the broken trade agreement of the surplus grain so the same might happen on this timeline.

 

[dianaswordofsappho]

Maybe if Spain joins the axis and Portugal is invaded and or joins the axis perhaps Brazil would liberate Portugal?

 

[Guilherme Loureiro]

I don't believe on that. There is no way the US is keeping their word on the permanent seat on the security concil and there was no backlash on the brazilian side for the broken trade agreement of the surplus grain so the same might happen on this timeline.

As I understand it, Roosevelt was keen on having Brazil as one of the permanent seats of the UNSC; Stalin and Churchill were against it, the former because Brazil didn't even have diplomatic relations with the USSR, and even when relations were established, they weren't exactly friendly, and the latter because acquiescing to Brazilian desires would put Brazil as the uncontested No.1 power in South America, something the British didn't want to happen. Roosevelt's position on Brazil wasn't shared by most in the US government.

When Roosevelt died, a lot of Brazilian bargaining power was lost with him - Truman didn't care about Brazil or South America, he cared about containing the USSR. The only way of having Brazil win more than scraps at the table in 1945 is by making Brazil someone the Allies cannot afford to offend too much. The only thing Brazil can do to accomplish that is by being one of the major belligerent nations. Is it certain that, by doing this, Brazil would get what it felt entitled to, or at least most of it? Not at all. But it's the only way I can see a chance of it happening.

EDIT: In case of an invasion of the Iberian Peninsula, I can see Brazil being one of the nations participating of it.

 

[naraht]

Columbian status report to C-in-C:

“Advanced additional 100 miles towards Manaus. Divisional strength down to 60%. Yet to encounter Brazilian army forces....”

And will cross the Brazilian border tomorrow. (The Columbian side of the borders doesn't have that much in support roads either)

 

[Johnrankins]

As I understand it, Roosevelt was keen on having Brazil as one of the permanent seats of the UNSC; Stalin and Churchill were against it, the former because Brazil didn't even have diplomatic relations with the USSR, and even when relations were established, they weren't exactly friendly, and the latter because acquiescing to Brazilian desires would put Brazil as the uncontested No.1 power in South America, something the British didn't want to happen. Roosevelt's position on Brazil wasn't shared by most in the US government.

When Roosevelt died, a lot of Brazilian bargaining power was lost with him - Truman didn't care about Brazil or South America, he cared about containing the USSR. The only way of having Brazil win more than scraps at the table in 1945 is by making Brazil someone the Allies cannot afford to offend too much. The only thing Brazil can do to accomplish that is by being one of the major belligerent nations. Is it certain that, by doing this, Brazil would get what it felt entitled to, or at least most of it? Not at all. But it's the only way I can see a chance of it happening.

EDIT: In case of an invasion of the Iberian Peninsula, I can see Brazil being one of the nations participating of it.

Even with FDR still in there it is difficult to see without Brazil having some of its blood spilled. All the rest of the permanent members had their blood spilled trying to stop the Axis, Brazil did not.

 

[Gukpard]

As I understand it, Roosevelt was keen on having Brazil as one of the permanent seats of the UNSC; Stalin and Churchill were against it, the former because Brazil didn't even have diplomatic relations with the USSR, and even when relations were established, they weren't exactly friendly, and the latter because acquiescing to Brazilian desires would put Brazil as the uncontested No.1 power in South America, something the British didn't want to happen. Roosevelt's position on Brazil wasn't shared by most in the US government.

When Roosevelt died, a lot of Brazilian bargaining power was lost with him - Truman didn't care about Brazil or South America, he cared about containing the USSR. The only way of having Brazil win more than scraps at the table in 1945 is by making Brazil someone the Allies cannot afford to offend too much. The only thing Brazil can do to accomplish that is by being one of the major belligerent nations. Is it certain that, by doing this, Brazil would get what it felt entitled to, or at least most of it? Not at all. But it's the only way I can see a chance of it happening.

EDIT: In case of an invasion of the Iberian Peninsula, I can see Brazil being one of the nations participating of it.

Brazil cannot be considered a main contribuitor enought to join the permanent security concil and there is no need on the american side for them to keep their promises to buy our grain.

Brazil had a population of 44 million people, while France had a similar one and still got a seat, they had the massive colonial empire and had contributed way more than Brazil can possibiliy do. The other members of the concil apart from the UK had over 100 million people and were intercontinental countries, something that Brazil isn't.

 

[rfmcdonald]

Brazil cannot be considered a main contribuitor enought to join the permanent security concil and there is no need on the american side for them to keep their promises to buy our grain.

Brazil had a population of 44 million people, while France had a similar one and still got a seat, they had the massive colonial empire and had contributed way more than Brazil can possibiliy do. The other members of the concil apart from the UK had over 100 million people and were intercontinental countries, something that Brazil isn't.

Brazil certainly comes close, mind. It was not an intercontinental country, but it does occupy a continent-size space and had ties with the Lusophone world and wider Latin America. Had Brazil been more active, I can see it.

 

[Guilherme Loureiro]

Brazil cannot be considered a main contribuitor enought to join the permanent security concil and there is no need on the american side for them to keep their promises to buy our grain.

Brazil had a population of 44 million people, while France had a similar one and still got a seat, they had the massive colonial empire and had contributed way more than Brazil can possibiliy do. The other members of the concil apart from the UK had over 100 million people and were intercontinental countries, something that Brazil isn't.

Brazil certainly comes close, mind. It was not an intercontinental country, but it does occupy a continent-size space and had ties with the Lusophone world and wider Latin America. Had Brazil been more active, I can see it.

And a lot of what is said about Brazil applies to China(population and the rather big fact they started fighting in 1937 excepted). IMO, it's possible, but not at all sure. But like I said, it's the only thing Brazil can do to get what it wants. Everything else that can be done depends on others.

 

[Gukpard]

And a lot of what is said about Brazil applies to China(population and the rather big fact they started fighting in 1937 excepted). IMO, it's possible, but not at all sure. But like I said, it's the only thing Brazil can do to get what it wants. Everything else that can be done depends on others.

... Population and the fact that they started fighting in 1937 are the TWO main points about China. Furthermore China is bigger than Brazil, you have to consider that Kuomitang China didn't controlled Mongolia, but didn't recognized it too so it was in paper even bigger than the PRC.

I'm not saying that a right wing liberal brazil joining the allies earlier wouldn't win some at the end of the war, but the two main promises would still be broken, I find very unsettling for the allies of the USA, countries like Canada or Australia see Brazil sitting on the UN security concil while they don't.

 

[TonyA]

World War I participation would be difficult, as has been pointed out. With Argentina not taking part, I can't see the Navy sending any ships to support the War in Europe, especially capital ships.

I might have an avenue for World War II: Several years ago on the NavWeaps Design a Navy/Ship board, I posted a hypothetical about the RN handing the Brazilian Navy ships in 1943-44 as the manpower crunch started to hit the RN. The purpose of that thread was mostly 'what ships should the Brazilians take' if offered a choice. But if we have the RN see the manpower crunch coming in, say mid-late 1942. and Brazil calling up more men than she has ships to utilize them, a training program could be put in place to get the Brazilian Navy ready to take over RN ships passing out of front-line service in '43-44.

Some examples of major units:

Malaya - Late '43 she was used as a target, and had her 6in battery removed; in 1944 she became an accommodation ship
Resolution - October '43 she was placed in reserve
Dauntless - June '43 she became a training ship
Durbin - November '43 to reserve
Ceres - October '43 she was used as a station ship
Caradoc - April 1944 she was used as a base ship

In addition, I'd note that when Ramillies was docked at Durban for temporary repairs after being torpedoed by a Japanese midget submarine (30 May 1942), she was inspected by a naval constructor named Pengelly, and he found her to be in exceptionally good condition (26 years old at the time!). It might not be a stretch to have her added to the list of candidates above.

For light forced, Brazil constructed the three Marcílio Dias class destroyers (based on USN's Mahan class), commissioning them in 1943, and the Havant/Jurua class could be handed back to them. Also, the RN is procuring a lot of corvettes and frigates; some could easily find their way into the Brazilian Navy.

My initial thoughts,

Edit- the original thread referenced above:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards/off-the-shelf-navy-ii-mid-40s-t5513.html

This strikes me as a rather realistic way for Brazil to make a significant contribution to the naval side of WW2...as a major convoy escorter, freeing the RN to have more opportunity to actually strike their opponents. Seems made to order...

 

[dianaswordofsappho]

The way I see it if Brazil can help liberate Portugal and Spain I think they win a spot

 

[Johnrankins]

The way I see it if Brazil can help liberate Portugal and Spain I think they win a spot

Not unless it costs them 200,000 dead or more, if then. Permanent seats were paid in blood.

 

[Guilherme Loureiro]

... Population and the fact that they started fighting in 1937 are the TWO main points about China.

They are the ONLY points about China, that was my point.

I'm not saying that a right wing liberal brazil joining the allies earlier wouldn't win some at the end of the war, but the two main promises would still be broken, I find very unsettling for the allies of the USA, countries like Canada or Australia see Brazil sitting on the UN security concil while they don't.

Why(really, I don't get this one)?

 

[Gukpard]

They are the ONLY points about China, that was my point

There are also the dimensions of China and the fact that the europeans have more respect for them than for us.

Why(really, I don't get this one)?

You are a canadian and you hear that Brazil is getting a seat on the UN security concil. You are going to protest since you believe that Brazil is too irrelevant to join it and Canada should join it instead.

 

[rfmcdonald]

I am reminded of how, in the War of the Triple Alliance, all that the massive bloodshed did was discredit the Imperial regime. I would not be surprised if the republican governments of Brazil remembered this.

 

[Dorknought]

Or flip it around and play at home. A late 1914 pact with Argentina, Brazil and Chile to take the remaining European holdings in South America. USA approves! Spee makes for Buenos Aires while Argentina readies forces to take the Falklands. Brazil marches on French Guiana.

 

[Pauh the federalist]

Portugal joins allies in WW2 1939 per request by the British (Portugal said they would honor the Portuguese-British alliance in 1939 but were not asked to join so they stayed out. let's assume they stick to there word.). If we then get nationalist Spain to join the axis at some point we could have Brazil help to defend Portugal alongside Britain or if they don't join in time they could help in the Portuguese front of the reconquest of Iberia in an alt D Day with Iberia being invaded from multiple directions to divide axis defenses preventing them from concentrating their forces at 3 primary lanching points the Portuguese Azores islands (Brazil launch site to retake Portugal), Spanish north Morocco (taken in African campaign and British/Commonwealth launch site to retake control of western entrance to the Mediterranean). Balearic Islands (American launch site meant to land on the east coast of Spain somewhere south of Catalonia, with the city as their primary objective once they got a beachhead established.

 

[Guilherme Loureiro]

There are also the dimensions of China and the fact that the europeans have more respect for them than for us.

Hmm, on the 'respect' part, I think they saw us about the same as the Chinese(i. e., as low as they saw the Chinese).

You are a canadian and you hear that Brazil is getting a seat on the UN security concil. You are going to protest since you believe that Brazil is too irrelevant to join it and Canada should join it instead.

Had it been OTL, I would agree, but I'm assuming that Brazil would be a major belligerent, contributing more than the governments-in-exile(except for France). Harder to make such an argument.

 

[jerseyguy]

Is it plausible for one of the Axis Members to prop up one of the parties in the Chaco Dispute as a proxy, and have a Brazilian-Paraguayan invasion of Bolivia or a Brazilian-Bolivian invasion of Paraguay?

 

[Gukpard]

Hmm, on the 'respect' part, I think they saw us about the same as the Chinese(i. e., as low as they saw the Chinese).



Had it been OTL, I would agree, but I'm assuming that Brazil would be a major belligerent, contributing more than the governments-in-exile(except for France). Harder to make such an argument.

I don't think so, sorry. I really believe that even with Brazil putting our blood in the beaches and fields in Europe the rest of the world would still look down on us. They did it with Portugal, Italy and Japan in WWI, Brazil hardly would get a different treatment as this countries had.

This might result in a more powerful left on the post war, capitalising on a mutilated victory.