AHC: Gibraltar Captured

Ravenclaw

Is there any way for Fascist Spain to take British Gibraltar, either before or during WWII? Could they conceivably starve them out, if Germany kept Britain occupied? (Spain and Germany don't necessarily have to be allies)
What effect would this have on the rest of the war? (much harder to enter Mediterranean)
Alternately, what if German troops go through Spain to take Gibraltar? What would cause that?
 

gloster meteor mk3

Banned
No way possible. The Germans would have to cancel operation Barbarossa to even try this. they could not drop paratroops in and a seaborne invasion was not possible. They would need to build the Graf Zeppelin aircraft carrier to even attempt it, Bismark and Tirpitz to get into the med which we would not let happen. So no it,s not possible.
 

NorthernFiend

Banned
Germans lose a parachute division

Allies invade Spanish Morocco and control the straights from Tangiers
+ Canary Islands and Azores

and SOE restarts the Spanish Civil War
 

DoomBunny

It's not so much taking Gibraltar that's the problem, rather keeping it.

The actual place itself isn't likely to hold against a determined attack by a competent attacker, it's too small, too reliant on the outside and lacks a big enough garrison. It could however be made a rather bloody affair.

Keeping it though is the problem. Before the war, Spain is likely to get rather badly beaten, especially as it will only have just come out of, or be in, the civil war. During the war, Spain might get away with it for a bit, depending on the date, but soon enough the Allies are likely to come and take it back, either as part of the invasion of Europe or after Germany surrenders.

As for its effects. Not much in itself. It allows U-Boats easier passage to the Med, but the Med isn't particularly fun for submarines, and those subs wont be contributing to the Atlantic campaign. Most Allied convoys already went round Africa IIRC. The main change is that Spain is now either involved in WW2 or fighting the Allies pre-WW2.
 

Simreeve

Spain in that period needs to import a lot of stuff. Germany can't guarantee supplies, so it needs trans-oceanic trade... which means that it needs not to be at war with the UK. Franco understood this, and it's one of the reasons why Spain didn't join the Axis IOTL.
 

Rubicon

Banned
Not sure if I understand the scenario here. But if Spain is axis, Gibraltar falls within a week, at most with about 1k-3k German casulties.
 

NorthernFiend

Banned
Rubicon said:
Not sure if I understand the scenario here. But if Spain is axis, Gibraltar falls within a week, at most with about 1k-3k German casulties.
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I've lived there. It would be easy to resupply across the straights at night and unless the huge guns from Crimea are brought up they will have problems getting through the fortifications. Seriously, you would need bigger bombs than Stukas can carry.

this is hardly relevant to WW2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Siege_of_Gibraltar
but to the locals it happened yesterday - it defines their existence
 

Rubicon

Banned
NorthernFiend said:
I've lived there. It would be easy to resupply across the straights at night and unless the huge guns from Crimea are brought up they will have problems getting through the fortifications. Seriously, you would need bigger bombs than Stukas can carry.
Click to expand...

And since the North African coast would be under the control of hostile powers, the resupply would come from where?

As for fortifications: It took 78 paratroopers to neutralise one of the most powerfull fortresses in Western Europe with a garrison of 1200 men.

But since the situation isn't the same I upped the German casualty figure to about the same as the capture of Brest-Litovsk.

One week, 1K-3K German casulties.
 

Deckhand

Rubicon said:
And since the North African coast would be under the control of hostile powers, the resupply would come from where?

As for fortifications: It took 78 paratroopers to neutralise one of the most powerfull fortresses in Western Europe with a garrison of 1200 men.

But since the situation isn't the same I upped the German casualty figure to about the same as the capture of Brest-Litovsk.

One week, 1K-3K German casulties.
Click to expand...


And it is utterly irrelevant anyway.

Britain takes the Canaries, strategic situation moderately unchanged, and Spain starves, a lot, while Germany looks under the mattress trying to find the equipment to make the Spanish army anything but a giant dragging ball and chain on the Axis war effort.
 
ScrewySqrl

ScrewySqrl

the problem with germans taking Gibraltar is Spain's wholly inadequate rail network. As it was, it was only barely enough to keep Battered, worn out Spain barely fed.
 

Rubicon

Banned
Deckhand said:
And it is utterly irrelevant anyway.

Britain takes the Canaries, strategic situation moderately unchanged, and Spain starves, a lot, while Germany looks under the mattress trying to find the equipment to make the Spanish army anything but a giant dragging ball and chain on the Axis war effort.
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Nice bit of changing the subject there to something I've never argued for in either way. Usually called strawman argument.
 

Living in Exile

It's not hard for Gibralter to fall. As far as I remember, all the great fortifications that were put to the test in WWII fell.

It's more difficult to convince Franco it's a good idea. Perhaps if the Italians are more competent and take Malta and seriously threaten the Suez Canal Franco will think the British Empire is collapsing and make his move. So there's a pretty narrow timeframe after the fall of France and before Barbarossa where it looks like Britain is on the ropes.
 

Deleted member 1487

Gibraltar would have been cut off very easily if it were attacked by the Axis (including Spain) with resupply impossible, because the port was extremely exposed; Spanish coastal artillery both in Morocco and across the bay in Spain itself was in range and observation of Gibraltar's harbor and the defenses of the rock itself.
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gibraltar-map.gif


As already mentioned though, the big obstacle is getting Spain to risk losing her international trade, which she was dependent on for food. As it was the economy was in shambles and Spain needed foreign wheat to prevent famine. So the only way Spain would join was if Britain was close to exiting the war and its navy couldn't blockade Spain.
 

Deckhand

Rubicon said:
Nice bit of changing the subject there to something I've never argued for in either way. Usually called strawman argument.
Click to expand...

Wasn't even arguing with u. I agree gib would fall if the effort was put in. I also know that it was irrelevant.
 
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