AHC: Get Judaism to be a major religion

When Himyarite King Dhu Nuwas sends an emissary to Persia for an alliance against Rome, have it be at a better time than when the Romans peace ambassadors are literally in the city as the Himyarite emissaries arrive. An alliance with Persia keeps Justinian from sticking his nose in the Kingdom's business as it wars against Axum. Eventually Arabia from Dhofar to the Rhoman border comes under Himyarite control.

Down the line, Himyarite merchants spread Judaism throughout the Indian Ocean basin.
 
Crazy idea, but if Mormonism would be a Jewish splinter sect instead of a bonafide new religion, would the number of tradition Jews and OTL Mormons reach the desired 10%?
 
How about this:
1. Wank the Persians hard enough to butterfly Christianity or make it a minor footnote.
2. Have Jews pissed at Roman repression cooperate with the Persians and have good relations.
3. Have Zoroastrianism remain an Iranian ethnic religion while Judaism (and various radical variants) make heavy inroad amount Semitic populations in the western territories of our wanked Persia.
4. Due to converting many pagan Arab tribes Judaism starts spreading across Indian Ocean trade routes.
5. Onced wanked Persia becomes weak some Jewish Arab warlord sets up a Middle-Eastern Persian Empire.
6. Have Judaism have long enough contact with Hellenic philosphy to not seem alien in Greek/Latin speaking areas.
7. Smack Europe around hard enough in the Age of Migrations to give the Jewish Middle-East an edge.
 
When Himyarite King Dhu Nuwas sends an emissary to Persia for an alliance against Rome, have it be at a better time than when the Romans peace ambassadors are literally in the city as the Himyarite emissaries arrive. An alliance with Persia keeps Justinian from sticking his nose in the Kingdom's business as it wars against Axum. Eventually Arabia from Dhofar to the Rhoman border comes under Himyarite control.

Down the line, Himyarite merchants spread Judaism throughout the Indian Ocean basin.


Elaborating on this,
Yemen today has 25 million people
The Saudi bits which belong to Himyar here have 16.5 million
The Dhofar region of Yemen has .5 million
The global jewish population is ~15 million.

Indonesia, Somalia, the Swahili Coast, Malaysia, Champa, parts of Burma, and the Hui of china became muslim due to trade with Southern Arabia. That's probably like 300 million.

Maybe Jews conquer Ethiopia as well.

I could see 500million practitioners of Judaism in such a world.
 
The likes of Dihya / Kahina and Gudit, suggests gains could be made west of Egypt among the Amazigh and much if not all of East Africa.
 

Marc

Donor
This comes up in various ways on a number of threads: if you radically change identity/religion/culture, it stops being that original society and becomes something else entirely.
In this case just about all the core tenets of Judaism, starting with being God's Chosen People, are either twisted beyond recognition, or simply cease to exist at all.

History is multi-variate, extremely so. Supposing is great fun, but when we start being massive about it, it becomes a probabilistic nightmare.
 
One idea I've seen is to have Mohammed embrace Judaism, specifically as a proto-Karaite, and have that become the driving religious ideology of the Arab conquests.

Make the initial conversion of Jewish/Christian tribes in Arabia that formed the core of early Islam more extensive, make the Koran more similar to the Book, and it's possible that Islam is generally considered the successor to the groups that were expelled from Judea by the Romans.
 
This comes up in various ways on a number of threads: if you radically change identity/religion/culture, it stops being that original society and becomes something else entirely.
In this case just about all the core tenets of Judaism, starting with being God's Chosen People, are either twisted beyond recognition, or simply cease to exist at all.

History is multi-variate, extremely so. Supposing is great fun, but when we start being massive about it, it becomes a probabilistic nightmare.

You could extend Chosen People to include related peoples who take on the law. Moses's wife was from Midian, which is today in Saudi Arabia. Sheba was in Yemen, although the bible wasn't very happy with the prospective union of Solomon and the Queen of Sheba.
 
Found the following quote on the subject of historical proactive conversion to Judaism. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proactive_conversion

Judaism was openly proselytized both inside and outside of Israel in ancient times, with the population of Jews eventually coming to total at least 8 million people, or 10 percent of the population of the Roman Empire, by the first century. This large population was curtailed by Roman prohibitions on the Judeans and their religion due to frequent attempts at secession, and the prohibitions set in place were further aggravated by the rise of Christianity as a state religion, which resulted in declaring conversion to Judaism as a capital offense CE 407.

Also it seems there was some debate on the requirement for circumcision for converts up to a certain point in time. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism#Early_debate_on_requirement_for_circumcision

Perhaps ATL Rome ends up adopting a form of Latinized/Hellenistic Judaism, while other peoples embrace a more Karaite type form of Judaism.

With the Mongols/Turkic peoples embracing Judaism and claiming lineage from the Tribe of Benjamin given the associations with the Wolf and archery/bow for both, with the Ashina tribe perhaps even attempting to claim descent from King Saul (which would also be interesting in an OTL-like scenario where the ATL Mongols win the analogue to the battle of Ain Jalut).

The type of ATL Judaism embraced in Sinosphere and Indosphere is more difficult to imagine though likely a variation of Karaite and Mongol/Turkic "Tribe of Benjamin" forms, followed by a minority embracing esoteric versions of Judaism (as a ATL Sufi analogue).
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
I have one interesting timeline. Get the Jews in the Middle East travel into Afghanistan and Sogdia and settle in around any time before the Turkic expansion and get influenced by the theologies and philosophies there and give up some orthodoxy. Now with a more structured and conducive for becoming a major religion,they start to spread it westwards and Northwards and get Scythians,Sarmatians and Slavs in. Viola! You would have a major religion in Central Asia which is a form of Judaism. But that will be a form of Judaism like how English is a form of Proto-Germanic and how Christianity is a form of Judaism and Hellenism/Roman Paganism.
 
I answered the OP in another thread. In short, Judaism was 10 percent of the Roman EMpire at the time of Christ. A gentile-friendly judaism would have helped it go much further. Christianity OTL proved to be just that. ITTL, simply have a branch of Judaism do the same thing. Perhaps the destruction of the temple in 70AD makes a much more friendly rabbinic judiams without sacrifices, cleansings, and other ceremonial stuff that kept of gentiles. No circumcision. Pretty much, an ancient reformed judaism needs to exist.
 
While a Judaism without much of the pre 70AD/destruction of the Temple can certainly be seen as much more "gentile friendly", one of the things that would be highly unlikely to go away is circumcision. This goes back to the foundation of the religion, "the covenant" preceding dietary laws etc - and the dietary laws are not Temple dependent either. Islam has circumcision (and frankly from the recipients standpoint better as an infant than as a child) and dietary laws so those two items are not conversion-killers. BTW other societies have circumcision as part of coming of age rituals.

The "morality" of Christianity is basically no different than that of Judaism or Islam, or in fact most other major religions - don't do things like murder, rape, and steal, try to be a good and honest person etc. One of the big selling points of Christianity was the ease of the religion - sincerely believe and you get in to heaven, no other rules to obey (other than as noted) and even then repentance brings salvation - look at the example of the thief on the cross next to Jesus. The formalized religious observances associated with Christianity were much less in the early church than as they evolved over time.

While the moral teachings of Jesus might have traction in a situation where he is not executed but say exiled, absent the miracle of the resurrection selling belief in Jesus as the Son of God, and the through him the way to eternal salvation just can't happen. Absent this miracle he is yet another religious philosopher and reformer but not a Divine personage. The most he can be is divinely inspired - like many Jewish prophets, Muhammed, the Ba'hai etc.
 
Saul of Tarsus, aka St. Paul, was one of the key catalysts in Christianity being seen both internally and externally distinct from Judaism. Butterfly away his conversion/Damascus Road experience and you'd get an entirely different world. If one adds in Luke and Acts, most of the New Testament was either ascribed to Paul or to Luke, who was a disciple of Paul.

If James lived and the center of Christianity stayed rooted in Jerusalem... and let's toss in the idea that there's no sack of Jerusalem nor a diaspora springing out of the sacking of Jerusalem, and you've created a scenario where Christianity could have eventually become a third sect, alongside the Sadducees and Pharisees. The thing is that within two or three hundred years the world wouldn't look anything like it did IOTL. Judaism would look entirely different, especially if the Messianism that dominated Jesus's disciples remained a dominant theme, and stayed under the umbrella of Judaism.

How would the pagan religions that were eventually supplanted by Christianity react to a somewhat larger Judaism? And how would they, themselves transition?

Would Rome have fallen? Would the industrialization of a non-fallen Rome happen a few centuries earlier or would the rot from within bring about the dark ages anyway?
 
If you're looking for a motivation for people to convert to Judaism, maybe this helps: https://medium.com/incerto/the-most...ctatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15

"This strategy of the best lower bound might have been played by the Khazars looking to chose between Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Legend has it that three high ranking delegations (bishops, rabbis and sheikhs) came to make the sales pitch. They asked the Christians: if you were forced to chose between Judaism and Islam, which one would you pick? Judaism, they replied. Then they asked the Muslim: which of the two, Christianity or Judaism. Judaism, the Muslim said. Judaim it was and the tribe converted."
 
When Himyarite King Dhu Nuwas sends an emissary to Persia for an alliance against Rome, have it be at a better time than when the Romans peace ambassadors are literally in the city as the Himyarite emissaries arrive. An alliance with Persia keeps Justinian from sticking his nose in the Kingdom's business as it wars against Axum. Eventually Arabia from Dhofar to the Rhoman border comes under Himyarite control.

Down the line, Himyarite merchants spread Judaism throughout the Indian Ocean basin.

Elaborating on this,
Yemen today has 25 million people
The Saudi bits which belong to Himyar here have 16.5 million
The Dhofar region of Yemen has .5 million
The global jewish population is ~15 million.
Indonesia, Somalia, the Swahili Coast, Malaysia, Champa, parts of Burma, and the Hui of china became muslim due to trade with Southern Arabia. That's probably like 300 million.
Maybe Jews conquer Ethiopia as well.
I could see 500million practitioners of Judaism in such a world.

OTL Axum had a significant Jewish population, was polytheist until King Ezana in the mid 300s, and eventually conquered Himyar in the 500s (after Himyar attacked Axum). And there was a Jewish kingdom in Ethiopia that rebelled from Axum in the early 400s (as a reaction to Ezana's conversion to Christianity).
If Himyar conquered Axum, or if Ezana became Jewish instead of Christian, or if Semien subsumed Axum ... that could have happened.

It would butterfly Islam. Muhammad was only one of multiple self-proclaimed Mashriqi prophets (e.x. Musaylimah, Al-Aswad Al-Ansi, Sajah, Saf ibn Sayyad, Tulayha ibn Khuwaylid, 7th century; Abu Isa, Al-Muqanna, Ustadh Sis, 8th century). A Jewish kingdom or network of allied realms stretching from east Africa to Persia might mean that the specific warlord-prophet figure who arises would utilize Judaism and wouldn't start his own religion. That person might be coopted by a Jewish kingdom to legitimize their rule over the others (similar to the Biblical prophet Samuel). Or that person might unite the Jewish realms under his own, specifically Jewish, banner.

A Jewish Arabian and east-African empire (or network of allied states) within the Sassanid Persian sphere of influence, working together against the Greek Christian Roman empire ... I'd read that TL.
 
OTL Axum had a significant Jewish population, was polytheist until King Ezana in the mid 300s, and eventually conquered Himyar in the 500s (after Himyar attacked Axum). And there was a Jewish kingdom in Ethiopia that rebelled from Axum in the early 400s (as a reaction to Ezana's conversion to Christianity).
If Himyar conquered Axum, or if Ezana became Jewish instead of Christian, or if Semien subsumed Axum ... that could have happened.

It would butterfly Islam. Muhammad was only one of multiple self-proclaimed Mashriqi prophets (e.x. Musaylimah, Al-Aswad Al-Ansi, Sajah, Saf ibn Sayyad, Tulayha ibn Khuwaylid, 7th century; Abu Isa, Al-Muqanna, Ustadh Sis, 8th century). A Jewish kingdom or network of allied realms stretching from east Africa to Persia might mean that the specific warlord-prophet figure who arises would utilize Judaism and wouldn't start his own religion. That person might be coopted by a Jewish kingdom to legitimize their rule over the others (similar to the Biblical prophet Samuel). Or that person might unite the Jewish realms under his own, specifically Jewish, banner.

A Jewish Arabian and east-African empire (or network of allied states) within the Sassanid Persian sphere of influence, working together against the Greek Christian Roman empire ... I'd read that TL.

On top of the above while doubtful it would be interesting to see this Jewish Arabian and East-African empire (or network of allied states nominally under Persian sphere of influence) managed to gain much of the Levant / etc, if not further by managing to have a common border with the Khazars (even if the conversion of the latter was limited to the elite in OTL).
 
On top of the above while doubtful it would be interesting to see this Jewish Arabian and East-African empire (or network of allied states nominally under Persian sphere of influence) managed to gain much of the Levant / etc, if not further by managing to have a common border with the Khazars (even if the conversion of the latter was limited to the elite in OTL).
The Levant wouldn't be difficult. OTL the Levant and Egypt were conquered from the Byzantines by the Sassanids in the 600s (before being reconquered by the Byzantines). The Jewish population of the Levant even helped. With a Jewish Arabian ally (with or without east Africa), they should be able to do the same.

Which ITTL would lead to either (1) Jewish Arabia and East Africa becomes closer to the Sassanids (where Emperor Shahrbaraz is seen as a new Cyrus the Great, who is respected and praised by Jews even today); or, and this is much less likely IMHO, (2) the aforementioned Jewish warlord-prophetic figure would unite the two Jewish Arabian and African polities and then conquer the war-torn Levant.
 
The Levant wouldn't be difficult. OTL the Levant and Egypt were conquered from the Byzantines by the Sassanids in the 600s (before being reconquered by the Byzantines). The Jewish population of the Levant even helped. With a Jewish Arabian ally (with or without east Africa), they should be able to do the same.

Which ITTL would lead to either (1) Jewish Arabia and East Africa becomes closer to the Sassanids (where Emperor Shahrbaraz is seen as a new Cyrus the Great, who is respected and praised by Jews even today); or, and this is much less likely IMHO, (2) the aforementioned Jewish warlord-prophetic figure would unite the two Jewish Arabian and African polities and then conquer the war-torn Levant.

Have doubts they could take Egypt, though like of the idea of Jewish Arabia / East Africa or network of Jewish states making significant gains in North Africa (amongst the Amazigh), Central Asia and South/Southeast Asia (in terms of followers at minimum if not quite states).
 
If you're looking for a motivation for people to convert to Judaism, maybe this helps: https://medium.com/incerto/the-most...ctatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15

"This strategy of the best lower bound might have been played by the Khazars looking to chose between Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Legend has it that three high ranking delegations (bishops, rabbis and sheikhs) came to make the sales pitch. They asked the Christians: if you were forced to chose between Judaism and Islam, which one would you pick? Judaism, they replied. Then they asked the Muslim: which of the two, Christianity or Judaism. Judaism, the Muslim said. Judaim it was and the tribe converted."

On the flip side, other Jewish communities (and non-Jewish communities) would have to be more open to considering converts like these as Jewish. Even today there is a lot of controversy around whether the Khazar converts were really Jewish, in fact it's definitely more controversial today than it was at the time.


What did the Rabbi's say when they were asked to pick between Christian and Islam?
 
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