AHC: Germany united by neither Prussia, Bavaria or Austria

Napoleonic victory, with the Kingdom of Westphalia eventually uniting "Germany" (probably without Prussia, Austria, or Bavaria)?

Could Napoleon lose and still have it remain? Perhaps the Germans realize that united they would have a better resistant against an invader and keep the kingdom
 
You could change the Congress of Vienna's outcome as a PoD, letting Prussia keep its original Polish lands and creating a state out of what became the Prussian Rhineland. The Great Powers might not be satisfied with that as an effective counterbalance to France on the Rhine though, and rewards to any of Baden, Wurrtemburg, Saxony or Bavaria on that scale seem unlikely, as does one to Hannover.
 
It´s my opinion, that Prussia wasn´t really special. What it made the second great german power was in the end the "Soldier King" Frederick Wilhelm I. Give any other territory with the right size (Hannover, Saxon, Bavaria) a Prince who blow the Money on soldiers and not on palaces and whores and you can come to the same results.
I would not say he was the sole reason. Certainly the 17th and 18th century are as an age about as close as you can get to the Great Man Theory of history actually working. And in that time Brandenburg-Prussia had a run of good rulers The great elector rebuilt a devasted country, attracted unified its laws to a wide extent, concentrated the power in his hands and made it able to defend itself, which previously was not the case. Friedrich I. has the worst reputation of them, but he is not as bad as other princes of his time. Certainly he pressed his people merciless for money and spent it even faster as many other rulers, but some of the spendings, especially his huge allotments (for the time) to education, did pay of in the long run, and he did form a legally and factually unified state. Furthermore he in comparison to some other rulers of his time did neglect his army far less, instead loaned it out to the HRE, which helped to pay for it and made it one of its most experienced armies. The soldier king strengthened this army even further, modernised the administration and made it financially stable. And Friedrich II. utilised their work to transform it into actually recognized political and diplomatic power.

But throughout their rule you can recognize some lasting advantages of Prussia. Except Friedrich I. they all understood themselves as servants of their country. Rudimentary religious toleration in Brandenburg, even if mostly for practical reasons, predated the Great Elector. A recognition of the usefulness of knowledge can also be found with everyone of them, starting from the Great Elector who attracted Dutch and French craftsmen among others. And finally Brandenburg-Prussia was for a firmly aristocratic country rather meritocratic. Within these confines that again and again made possible the carreers of extraordinary public servants, even under mediocre rulers like FW II. and III. Even from fairly humble origins one could rise to the top with some luck. Georg von Derfflinger as extreme example was from a poor refugee family and died as a wealthy Reichsfreiherr.
 
Other princes

Saxony with a more successful Augustus the Strong.

Hanover, with or without Britain.

Hesse, unified, all those experienced mercenaries.

I liked the early Palatinate suggestion.
 
You could change the Congress of Vienna's outcome as a PoD, letting Prussia keep its original Polish lands and creating a state out of what became the Prussian Rhineland. The Great Powers might not be satisfied with that as an effective counterbalance to France on the Rhine though, and rewards to any of Baden, Wurrtemburg, Saxony or Bavaria on that scale seem unlikely, as does one to Hannover.

that was my idea, maybe giving it to the Wittelbasch(Bavaria) or Wettis(Saxony), my idea was swaping Saxony for Belgium and dividing rhineland among Belgica(need better name), Bavaria and Hannover
 
that was my idea, maybe giving it to the Wittelbasch(Bavaria) or Wettis(Saxony), my idea was swaping Saxony for Belgium and dividing rhineland among Belgica(need better name), Bavaria and Hannover

The problems with that are

1) Wettin and Wittelsbach were both supporters of Napoleon when it counted, so they wouldn't be getting big rewards (Saxony was punished at Vienna)
2) Hannover is in personal union with Britain, and for all intents and purposes in 1814 its seen as a continuation of the Britain on the continent, so its enlargement isn't in Britain or the continental powers' interest. Maybe as a stipulation of the Congress, another Scion of the Hannoverians could reign in Germany, and the state would receive the Rhineland (or a good chunk of it) in compensation for Britain's efforts

The big problem with Vienna is that no matter what, Prussia and Austria are going to be giants in the arena of Germany, and both need to be significantly humbled/reduced in size/influence (Prussia/Austria respectively) in order to precipitate German unification not under their aegis.
 
Yeah that's what I was thinking. If no one German power can rise to dominance in the way Prussia did IOTL there would still be a movement for national unification, but it would probably be more liberal-dominated than IOTL. Without a strong central nation with an interest in unification, the individual governments of the German states would be anti-unification, while their people would be more in favor. Unification would likely come at the same time as democratization, being one of the slate of reforms demanded by bourgeois revolutionaries.

This is sort of the line of thinking I am toying with in my TL. If the unification movement is led by more liberal-minded elements that can gain traction among people across Germany, even when their governments are opposed, it becomes part of the package for reform. This still requires the revolutions to be more successful in enacting change than they were iOTL of course.
 
Brandenburg has no chance at unifying Germany without becoming Prussia. The other secular electors are probably the best bet. What about the Palatinate holds on Bohemia in the 30 years war. Bohemia and the Palatinate together is very strong

Why that? IIRC Brandenburg-Prussia became so mighty because of its military-focused leaders and the bulk of the army came from Brandenburg. Even with-out Prussia Brandenburg might do pretty well. Should they get Mecklenburg or some other area they might be able to pull off the unification like they did OTL.

But my strongest bet if not (Brandenburg-)Prussia, Austria or Bavaria is Saxony. Saxony was richer and more populous than Brandenburg-Prussia in OTL.
If we avoid the split of the House Wettin into Ernestines and Albertines and the resulting conflicts we might see a even mightier Saxony.
Instead of Augustus the Strong this Saxont gets a an Elector more focused on the army.
In the long run they could first beat Brandenburg-Prussia and take a part of the Brandenburg aswell as the Franconian holdings of the House of Hohenzollern, later they expand towatds the north, grabing some of the Saxons ancient homeland and gaining a sea-port. Later they beat Austria and unite the rest of Germany ... voila.

Interessting would also be the Palatinatian Line of the House of Wittelsbach. The start of the Thirty-Years-War plays out differently, the Winterking stays on Bohemia's throne. Austria is weakened, the Bavarians accept that the Wittelsbach of Bohemia-Palatinate are now the top-dog of the family and because of the quicker war less people die.
France has troubles of some sort, the Wittelsbach seize the opportunity and take Lorraine. The Imperial authority is meanwhile still weak and some weakling "rules" from Vienna. The Wittelsbach strike again and force the Eclestial Electors into becoming protectorates. The Habsburgs impolde finally and in the following succession war the Wittelsbach grab all their Burgundian holdings. They beat the French one more time (because why not) and create the Kingdom of Burgundy. Soon thereafter they are crowned Emperor.

In theory you could take nearly every dynasty/country and give them the favor of the doubt, with a POD around the Reformation nearly everyone could unify Germany.
Prussia had no extraordinal conditions. They had good rulers, good timing and good luck.
 
A) Ottonian efforts to centralize the HRE are more successful and enduring, eventually centralizing Germany (and central Europe) under one government.

B) Hanseatic League forms into a political entity, not just a trading alliance. Its involvement in various wars makes it into a leading contender for a Northern German Confederation, eventually growing to involve Denmark (whose king assumes a limited but powerful role) and the future Netherlands. As pan-Germanism takes hold the people eventually decide they wish to stay with the Northerners and a unified, seafaring Germany is made with a capital at Hamburg.

C) Following the Congress of Vienna, several smaller German states organize into an economic trade league that becomes a political force to keep each of them in some sort of limited power. A United States of Germany is formed as a result, eventually uniting western Germany and parts of southern Germany along with Luxembourg. By 1848 this German Confederation is powerful enough to propose unity on its own terms.
 
How about the House of Luxembourg? Or specifically, Bohemnia?

Sigismund of Luxembourg has a son instead of Elisabeth (born in 1409) who married Albert II. If he has a son, let's call him Charles, and that causes butterflies that meant the future Frederick III is born a girl. After the death of Ladislas Posthumous, that meant the Habsburgs are extinct in the male line, meaning the female Frederick inherits all.

So let's assume a marriage of ATL Charles V and Frederika. He inherits all the Habsburg dominions, and basically play the role of OTL's Habsburgs, with Bohemia the powerbase instead of Austria, even if both dominions were under the same ruler.
 

oberdada

Gone Fishin'
I. Peasant Revolution (ca. 1525) wank with Martin Luther ending up Chancellor (or Lord Protector or whatever) of Germany

II. France wins in 1870, Revolution sweps away the Monarchies -> German Republic

III. A kind of 1634 Scenario, with Gustav Adolf from Sweden living longer and conquering Germany setting up an Empire

VI. No Hardenberg Reforms in Prussia, following by an overthrow of the Government, a new (republican) Government drops the name Prussia.


(Just some random thoughts)
 
What about a Brandenburg that does not unite with Prussia unites Germany.

How about the House of Luxembourg? Or specifically, Bohemnia?

Sigismund of Luxembourg has a son instead of Elisabeth (born in 1409) who married Albert II. If he has a son, let's call him Charles, and that causes butterflies that meant the future Frederick III is born a girl. After the death of Ladislas Posthumous, that meant the Habsburgs are extinct in the male line, meaning the female Frederick inherits all.

So let's assume a marriage of ATL Charles V and Frederika. He inherits all the Habsburg dominions, and basically play the role of OTL's Habsburgs, with Bohemia the powerbase instead of Austria, even if both dominions were under the same ruler.
If Sigismund has a son he could conquer Posen from the Polish Lithuanian union or a partition of Poland between Lithuania and Bohemia - most likely they get Greater Poland and the Jagiellonians don't get a chance to legitimize their rule in Poland in any way, since Elisabeth of Austria is not born - they would just be usurpers who are chosen by the nobility of Lesser Poland - the nobility of Western Poland(Silesia and Greater Poland) preferred a Polish King or at least someone who is at least descended from the Piasts, (the main reason why Silesia was not returned to Poland when it was offered) - the remaining branches of Piast and the Luxembourgs(heirs of Casimir III) would be their preference.
 
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What about the Netherlands? They could easily count as Germans. After all there are/were lots of different dialects within todays Germany, Austria and Switzerland in addition to those that were spoken in former eastern territories. Just let the Netherlands keep their great power status. Maybe they even become united with Britain. This would be a very powerful country which might succeed in pushing the Dutch power further east and possibly in time becoming the dominant power in the German areas.
 
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