AHC: Germany Sans Prussia?

[Clandango]

However Denmark probably lacks the ability to project power south of the Main because of it's "extreme" location, so again a North Germany would be no problem.

Denmark had "connections" with the Kassel royal house, perhaps in Napoleonic times (If they ever came about!) dynastic ties place Danish persuasions in central Germany, therefore, "Danish" power would be sat just north of the Main?[/QUOTE]
That or have a dynastic change of territory with Hanover goin to the Danes in exchange for all their islands outside mainland Europe.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

So could there be three Germanic states that could be nominally independent? Say a South German state led by Austria, a West German state led by an independent Westphalian entity and a North/East German state led by Denmark?

 

[Clandango]

Well, the Upper Rhine did used to speak a language very close to Dutch until the Kulturkampf came along. Maybe they could form a northwestern block.

 

[Gorm the Old]

A Napoleonic Wars POD does seems like the best bet if you still want Prussia to really be cemented as a thing, without being part of Germany.

Following the current discussion, a strong Scandinavian power* might be useful. It could act as a counterweight to the Prussians, reducing their pull in northern Germany. Combine this with the Prussians being confined to the territories in the east when the wars are over, and you might just be left with a Prussia with enough power to not just roll over, but too little to upset the status quo on its own.

Going forward a few decades, an alternate 1848 might see most of Germany united, while the Prussians fall increasingly under the influence of Russia. I don't see the Russians taking kindly to Prussia being absorbed into a "liberal" German state, so propping up the Hohenzollerns would make sense. If Austria is part of this Germany, I suppose we could then assume that the Hungarians are running the show in the remains of the empire. All three have an interest in keeping their ethnic minorities and peasants down, so they could form a conservative/reactionary block against the liberals of Germany and Italy.

*Danish king is a bit smarter and joins Britain against Napoleon, and is rewarded with Sweden (without Finland of course) at the end of the Napoleonic wars? Just not losing Norway might be enough though.

It's a pretty interesting question. It's not just a difference of some territory, it might be the character of the entire state. Much more Catholic, more liberal (assuming a revolutionary birth) and more focused on the south. And Prussia, sitting right on a major invasion route between this liberal Germany and the reactionary Russia would be in for some interesting times. I might cook up some simply maps of some scenarios tomorrow.

Also, just thinking about it and from Iori's map, a Germany that included Austria but not Prussia would be one hell of a awkward looking Germany. Maybe thats coming from my Victoria based desire for pretty borders, but its not great looking, you gotta admit.

Now imagine that it somehow included Denmark as well!

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

If it was a Danish centric German state, could we name it Kongeriget Tyskland? Or a Koenigriget Deutschland? Koenigriget being a mixed Danish-German word for kingdom.

 

[Clandango]

Have the Scandinavians keep Swedish Pomerania and perhaps get Meckleburg into their orbit if you want them as a decen Baltic buffer. Maybe even have republicanism run rampant in Hanover by revolutionaries from Heligoland.

 

[CaliBoy1990]

Have the Scandinavians keep Swedish Pomerania and perhaps get Meckleburg into their orbit if you want them as a decen Baltic buffer. Maybe even have republicanism run rampant in Hanover by revolutionaries from Heligoland.

Heligoland? Now that's a new one, LOL.

Well, anyhow, I suppose you could possibly come up with a schism of sorts between Prussia and the western states(technically, part of Prussia was itself in western Germany at one point but this can be butterflied early on). It doesn't have to be monarchy-related, either.

 

[Iserlohn]

Heligoland? Now that's a new one, LOL.

Well, anyhow, I suppose you could possibly come up with a schism of sorts between Prussia and the western states(technically, part of Prussia was itself in western Germany at one point but this can be butterflied early on). It doesn't have to be monarchy-related, either.

Well, Heligoland was a classic exile (and holiday destination) for German nationalists, most notable example is August Heinrich Hoffmann von Fallersleben, the guy who wrote the lyrics to the Deutschlandlied. So yeah, it makes a tiny bit of sense.

 

[Winston Smith]

An alternate Confederation of the Rhine is something I've seen in a few TLs excluding Prussia.

 

[Gorm the Old]

I might cook up some simply maps of some scenarios tomorrow.

Well, it only became a single scenario, and the maps aren't that simple, but here they are. Posted them in the Map Thread, since I haven't actually explored the question in the OP that much, but instead looked at the aftermath.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=6657167&postcount=1695

 

[CaliBoy1990]

Well, Heligoland was a classic exile (and holiday destination) for German nationalists, most notable example is August Heinrich Hoffmann von Fallersleben, the guy who wrote the lyrics to the Deutschlandlied. So yeah, it makes a tiny bit of sense.

I see. Links?

An alternate Confederation of the Rhine is something I've seen in a few TLs excluding Prussia.

Yeah.

 

[Blackfox5]

You could go way back to the time of the 30 Years War. Have the Austrians triumph and slowly turn the HRE into a workable central government. The Elector of Brandenburg wasn't yet King In/Of Prussia, so even if the land is incorporated into Germany, it won't be as a kingdom. You could even fineagle it so that futurewise the Duchy of Prussia never joins Germany, but remains part of Poland.

 

[Colonel Troutstrangler]

Great maps shown! I have been giving this POD a lot of thought, and I have trouble seeing the development of Germany without the beligerent attitude of the Prussians post 1812, and especially without the Iron Chancelor twisting the Ems telegramme to his own uses. It needs a "Bad Guy" - a militaristic nationality/ruling house; I just dont see that in any of the potential contenders?

 

[Thande]

So could there be three Germanic states that could be nominally independent? Say a South German state led by Austria, a West German state led by an independent Westphalian entity and a North/East German state led by Denmark?

Because Susano is no longer with us I should point out that 'Germanic' is not the right word to use here. Britain, Sweden, the Netherlands etc are Germanic, but they're not German.

 

[Clandango]

Because Susano is no longer with us I should point out that 'Germanic' is not the right word to use here. Britain, Sweden, the Netherlands etc are Germanic, but they're not German.

We probably need to get some sort of chart showing what the Germanic, Reichsdeutsch, Volksdeutchs, Aryans, Nordics, and similar things were considered by the Nazis to clear things up in the future. And again, there is a fair bit of land that the Prussians Germanized that used to speak languages similar to Dutch, so perhaps something on Germanic languages that became Germanized would also help.

 

[Gorm the Old]

We probably need to get some sort of chart showing what the Germanic, Reichsdeutsch, Volksdeutchs, Aryans, Nordics, and similar things were considered by the Nazis to clear things up in the future.

Anglo-Americans: Theoretically Germanic, actually just a bunch of mongrels!

Perhaps using Nazi definitions is a bad idea. Or at least have a chart for both Nazi weirdness and a more scientific approach.

 

[Colonel Troutstrangler]

Nutty Nazi nomenclature

Try this link:

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Volksdeutsche

Also: Roslins Wig did something on this too

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/member.php?u=21472

 

[robbiej]

Great maps shown! I have been giving this POD a lot of thought, and I have trouble seeing the development of Germany without the beligerent attitude of the Prussians post 1812, and especially without the Iron Chancelor twisting the Ems telegramme to his own uses. It needs a "Bad Guy" - a militaristic nationality/ruling house; I just dont see that in any of the potential contenders?

It would be more like a liberal constitutional monarchy a la Britain than anything else, without the influence of the Prussian conservatives.

I guess there might be a lot more Catholics in this Germany as well, since its centred around Austria and the South to a much larger extent, and there is no Kulturkampf in Prussia and the Rhineland in this Germany either.

While I can see where you are coming from, I don't really see why Germany needs a militaristic aristocracy to be Germany - the FRG manages just fine.