AHC: Germany never unites as one nation

With a POD after 1250, make it so that there is no one German nation. There may be a large region of what is OTL Germany (defined by its current borders) controlled by a given kingdom, but it must be divided into at least two kingdoms.

A continued HRE does not count as "no Germany". Whether disunited or not, it still is nominally one state in control of the area in question.

Large areas being controlled by France or another power is an acceptable method of meeting this challenge.

Bonus points if you can do this after 1848.
 
In the timeline i'm working on, Frederick is killed at Kolin, resulting in a loss in the 7YW for Prussia and the UK. Prussia is reduced to Brandeburg as a punishment for their action : Silesia go to Austria, Prussia to Poland, Sweden got her territories in Pommerania back, and saxony is expanded. A revolution happen in France around the same time and France get her natural frontier (the Rhine). Westphalia is reorganized into a Republic like almost all the eastern bank of the Rhine. In the 1830s, the chartists overthrow the King in UK who goes back in Hannover. Scandinavia unite. At the end you could see a southern german confederation dominated by Austria, a northern one dominated by Scandinavia, a western one dominated by France, and the central minor powers of Hannover, Brandeburg and Saxony to keep them apart. The whole thing hold together due to the interest of the neighbouring powers (France, Austria, Poland, Scandinavia) to maintain the status quo.
 
Napoleonic France abolishes the Holy Roman Empire and Prussia later emerges as the most powerful German state. Prussia excludes the Habsburg lands as it forms a confederation of German states, which later unites into a single country. Later, the Habsburg state is on the losing side of a major European war, and rump Austria is formed as a second major German state. While the larger kleindeustchland to the north may later attempt to annex it, the other major powers intervene and forbid them from coming together. Eventually Austria gets so used to its own independence its ceases to think of itself as part of Germany at all.
 
Napoleonic France abolishes the Holy Roman Empire and Prussia later emerges as the most powerful German state. Prussia excludes the Habsburg lands as it forms a confederation of German states, which later unites into a single country. Later, the Habsburg state is on the losing side of a major European war, and rump Austria is formed as a second major German state. While the larger kleindeustchland to the north may later attempt to annex it, the other major powers intervene and forbid them from coming together. Eventually Austria gets so used to its own independence its ceases to think of itself as part of Germany at all.

......... i chuckled.
 

MSZ

Banned
Doesn't present day Germany - Austria - Liechtenstein divide count?

As for a post 1848 scenario - keeping Bavaria completely independent fullfills the challenge. Maybe no Ems Telegram could delay a franco - german conflinct long enough for Bavaria to choose not to join in. So you could have a North German Union - Bavaria - Baden - Wurrtemberg - Austro-Hungary divide before the Great War, after which this division is maintained.
 
Post 1815 - Keep Austria dominant over the German Confederation, but without specific personalities who might have romantic/nationalist notions within the Habsburg Family. (ie: screw Prussia over, but keep OTL personalities in power in Austria)
 
Napoleonic France abolishes the Holy Roman Empire and Prussia later emerges as the most powerful German state. Prussia excludes the Habsburg lands as it forms a confederation of German states, which later unites into a single country. Later, the Habsburg state is on the losing side of a major European war, and rump Austria is formed as a second major German state. While the larger kleindeustchland to the north may later attempt to annex it, the other major powers intervene and forbid them from coming together. Eventually Austria gets so used to its own independence its ceases to think of itself as part of Germany at all.

:D Thats good stuff.
 
Napoleonic France abolishes the Holy Roman Empire and Prussia later emerges as the most powerful German state. Prussia excludes the Habsburg lands as it forms a confederation of German states, which later unites into a single country. Later, the Habsburg state is on the losing side of a major European war, and rump Austria is formed as a second major German state. While the larger kleindeustchland to the north may later attempt to annex it, the other major powers intervene and forbid them from coming together. Eventually Austria gets so used to its own independence its ceases to think of itself as part of Germany at all.

That's a good TL, let's finesse it a little.

First, after Napoleonic France abolishes the HRE you've got a first attempt to unite Germany by liberal-nationalists. This attempt fails because they get into too much fighting each other, not enough fighting their mutual opponents. This leaves no less than three rival versions of "Germany" floating around.

Second, there needs to be a way to limit Habsburg power before that general European war. Perhaps Prussia and Austria fight and Prussia wins by using railroads to send more troops than the Austria that outnumbers them? Austria kicks the crap out of Italy as a salve to Austrian ego, even, to avoid this looking like a Prussia-wank.

Next, have the Prussians (I assume we'll find a chancellor who's got the requisite Junker background and ultra-conservative mentality) outmaneuver France into a war circa 1870 that is a relatively quick win and lets them forge a unified Kleindeutsch state at French and Austrian expense. This small-Germany gets really, really economically and militarily powerful and Russia and France decide on an alliance (yes, yes, I know, that's ASB, no way would the reactionary Tsars ever ally with any France).

So then these guys join up with Britain, and decide to fight the Germans and Austro-Hungarians (because I can't see an 1866 loss ending well for just plain Austria). After much chaos the Habsburgs and Germans, who ally with....oh, Hell, just for randomness's sake Bulgaria and the Ottoman Empire wind up defeating Russia only to lose their own war, leaving a rump-Austria and a partitioned Germany, the Allies being dumb enough to use ethnic self-determination as the means to do this.

20 years later some random former bum takes over Germany at the head of a popular militaristic political party and briefly *does* establish Grossdeutschland by using political and military savvy. Then, with Russia ruled by another random guy selected out of a book who I have no real idea what his name is- Juga-something, Jugurtha, maybe?-he decides to invade Russia and where that guy is worse than the Tsar he's worse than that guy and Russia wins and leaves Germany split into Austria, Luxemburg, East Germany, and West Germany.

Albeit this is a poorly done timeline with no real thought into it, and I'm sure plenty of people would object to the details here, particularly random leaders in Germany and Russia and the idiot ball affecting the democracies. Oh, and for LULZ, I figure that the bum that takes over Germany should have a vaguely Czech-like name so as to have him be the check on Germany and have the Russian use the name Man of Steel because that leaves room for lots of cheap jokes in the ATL. I mean "Stalin" is almost perfect from the jokey-post-titles viewpoint. :D
 
Personally I think that with a POD around 1500-late 18th century a divided Germany is not only possible, but likely in my opinion (it is a pity Susano isn't here, he always disagreed with me on that). In that case Germany could easily end up in a couple of smaller states, like Prussia, Austria, Bavaria, etc. Though I suspect that it won't end up in lots and lots of very small state, as the HRE was.

With a POD after the Napoleonic wars it becomes less likely, although I could see a Germany that isn't fully united, but becomes an EU like structure or a confederation connected somehow but with lots of autonomy.
 
Sumeragi said:
I think the OP should be changed to "No reunification within Lesser Germany".

That's what I was trying to say. "Germany" as in Lesser Germany as in the modern country in multiple pieces.

I originally put "Austria is obviously separate", but I thought it was sufficiently clear that OTL is not divided enough - the goal is to have multiple German states within "Lesser Germany".
 

Phyrx

Banned
Napoleonic France abolishes the Holy Roman Empire and Prussia later emerges as the most powerful German state. Prussia excludes the Habsburg lands as it forms a confederation of German states, which later unites into a single country. Later, the Habsburg state is on the losing side of a major European war, and rump Austria is formed as a second major German state. While the larger kleindeustchland to the north may later attempt to annex it, the other major powers intervene and forbid them from coming together. Eventually Austria gets so used to its own independence its ceases to think of itself as part of Germany at all.
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ICWYDT.jpg
 

Sumeragi

Banned
That's what I was trying to say. "Germany" as in Lesser Germany as in the modern country in multiple pieces.

I originally put "Austria is obviously separate", but I thought it was sufficiently clear that OTL is not divided enough - the goal is to have multiple German states within "Lesser Germany".
Yes, but the replies seem to indicated otherwise:D:p
 
Doesn't present day Germany - Austria - Liechtenstein divide count?

As for a post 1848 scenario - keeping Bavaria completely independent fullfills the challenge. Maybe no Ems Telegram could delay a franco - german conflinct long enough for Bavaria to choose not to join in. So you could have a North German Union - Bavaria - Baden - Wurrtemberg - Austro-Hungary divide before the Great War, after which this division is maintained.
You forgot Switzerland.
 
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