AHC: Germany made into a third world country after WWII

How could Germany become a third world country sometime between 1945 and 2012? (Third world in the 'backwards' sense rather than the 'neutral' sense)

If that's impossible, what would happen if it was treated even harsher than OTL?
 
Two words: Morgenthau Plan.

To get this approved you'd need either a) less of a Soviet threat, or b) enough animosity towards Germany that the Western Allies are willing to overlook the Soviet threat for revenge.

Maybe Germany resorts to using chemical weapons?
 
Two words: Morgenthau Plan.

Yes...

Joseph Goebbels used the Morgenthau Plan in his propaganda. Goebbels said that "The Jew Morgenthau" wanted to make Germany into a giant potato patch. The headline of the Völkischer Beobachter stated, “ROOSEVELT AND CHURCHILL AGREE TO JEWISH MURDER PLAN!”

The Washington Post urged a stop to helping Dr. Goebbels: if the Germans suspect that nothing but complete destruction lies ahead, then they will fight on. The Republican presidential candidate Thomas Dewey complained in his campaign that the Germans had been terrified by the plan into fanatical resistance, "Now they are fighting with the frenzy of despair."

General George Marshall complained to Morgenthau that German resistance had strengthened.

President Roosevelt's son-in-law Lt. Colonel John Boettiger who worked in the War Department explained to Morgenthau how the American troops who had had to fight for five weeks against fierce German resistance to capture the city of Aachen had complained to him that the Morgenthau Plan was "worth thirty divisions to the Germans." Morgenthau refused to relent.

In the U.S., Hull argued that nothing would be left to Germany but land, and only 60% of the Germans could live off the land, meaning 40% of the population would die.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan

Plan Morgenthau was quite the gift to Hitler which effectively kept much of the German Army in the West fighting as killing off 1/3 to 1/2 of Germany's population from starvation is the sort of thing is something a huge number of Germans felt was worth fighting to the death over... without it the war would have ended in 1944 with the WAllies taking Germany IMHO.

So, you don't need to try hard to make Germany a Third World nation after the war. There was an offical plan to do so and if Truman died at a certain point after taking office Morgenthau actually would have become President and had every intention of instituting his plan in its most extreme form no matter what the cost in German civilian lives.
 
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Let's say that the Morgenthau Plan happens as planned, while the Soviets fall into a succession crisis.

What happens next?

Also, how does a third world Germany develop? (or not develop)
 
Let's say that the Morgenthau Plan happens as planned, while the Soviets fall into a succession crisis.

I don't think a succession crisis in the Soviet Union is even necessary. If the American government is stupid and evil enough to institute the plan in its most extreme form and let a third to half of the population of the Western Allied zone starve to death Stalin will look back and smile and make sure the Germans in his zone are well fed and treated and there will be a general revolt among West Germans against against the Anglo-American forces coordinated and aided by Stalin and Stalin would be able to make the West out to be monsters to the world and after the west pulls out all of Germany would go hard Communist in time without Stalin having the Red Army fire a shot.

Stalin won't try to take Berlin as he did OTL which kicked off the Cold War at least in the minds of the U.S. government who suddenly realized huh Stalin is not our best bud??? Stalin would just wait knowing Western Allied occupied Germany would rise up and go Communist with him providing a helping hand and it would only be a matter of time. When the GOP takes the WH they will likely pull completely out of Europe as there would be no Cold War. The Red Army are then welcomed by those in western Germany as liberators. The world would come to see America and the British as far worse monsters then Stalin and you would see many other nations going Red then OTL.

What we were doing OTL was bad enough. I believe Patton was very right about how completely stupid the U.S. government was being in 1945 both towards the Germans and the Russians. Stalin is getting ready for the next war while the U.S. leaders were busy competing to see how hard they can kick a broken German public that was already on the ground.
 
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Two words: Morgenthau Plan.

Two more

Nero Order :eek:

EDIT (Wasnt able to complete the full post as Real Life intervened!)

There was an old thread I came across a few weeks ago, the PoD is have Speer on the same plane that crashed killing Todt, either in its immediate wake or subsequently a loyal Nazi is appointed as Armaments Minister, I think someone suggested Hans Kammler making the whole armaments industry an SS fiefdom. As the Allies close in Hitler gives the same order as OTL but this time there's no Speer to countermand it. Cook wrote that had they succeeded in destroying the railway system and other transport links then there would have been a famine after the War. I imagine the WAllies would try and supply relief but if its big enough then it could be beyond their capability to address, Stalin may have been gloriously unsympathetic and abroad and in the former occupied territories many people would have had a "Let them starve" attitude. Germany will eventually recover, it's got too many resources to be a basket case for long, but it will take longer and the trauma of what happened will still be very real today.
 
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Two more

Nero Order :eek:

I think Hitler gave that order too late in the day so even if Speer went ahead with it, there wan't the time and the resources to pull it off to the level Hitler hoped for. Funny how both Hitler and Morgenthau were in agreement the German people deseved to suffer and die because of the war.

Now had Hitler when the SS came to him in 1945 asking to use German's massive WMD stockpile on the enemy troops had ok'ed that then Germany gets totally ruined in the counterattack enough so large parts of the country would be uninhabitable for a very long time after.
 
With a Morgenthau Plan enaction, how likely is it that, with Atlee still probably in power over in Britain, that you essentially end up with a break in policy between America and Britain/France (because Atlee is unlikely to support that. Heck Churchill would probably object on the grounds it strengthens the Soviets).

Could we effectively see a tripolar world as a result?
 
With a Morgenthau Plan enaction, how likely is it that, with Atlee still probably in power over in Britain, that you essentially end up with a break in policy between America and Britain/France (because Atlee is unlikely to support that. Heck Churchill would probably object on the grounds it strengthens the Soviets).

Could we effectively see a tripolar world as a result?

Doubt it. After 1945 Britain needs others to hop on board with it. Telling France, Belgium, and the Netherlands to give up land it would have gotten to counteract the Soviets*who were still in the honeymoon phase with the west* and/or the Americans ,which just pushed the Germans back and liberated their respective countries, would have been immensely difficult to sell to the leadership, let alone the public.

While not a tri-polar world you could have Britain acting more, "French" by persuing a more independent policy against America's wishes and possibly resisting decolonization so rapidly especially in whiter colonies. While probably accepting that India would be lost the Brits could fight to keep Kenya or Rhodesia.
 
With a Morgenthau Plan enaction, how likely is it that, with Atlee still probably in power over in Britain, that you essentially end up with a break in policy between America and Britain/France (because Atlee is unlikely to support that. Heck Churchill would probably object on the grounds it strengthens the Soviets).

Could we effectively see a tripolar world as a result?

FDR was willing to place economic aid to England on the line to make sure the plan went though.

Churchill was not inclined to support the proposal, saying "England would be chained to a dead body." Roosevelt reminded Churchill of Stalin's comments at the Tehran Conference, and asked "Are you going to let Germany produce modern metal furniture? The manufacture of metal furniture can be quickly turned in the manufacture of armament." The meeting broke up on Churchill's disagreement but Roosevelt suggested that Morgenthau and White continue to discuss with Lord Cherwell, Churchill's personal assistant.

Harry Dexter White, regarded by many as the principal author of the plan, was after his death exposed as having passed information on to the Soviets, who were U.S. allies at the time.

At Quebec White made sure that Lord Cherwell understood that economic aid to Britain was dependent on British approval of the plan. During the signing of the plan, which coincided with the signing of a loan agreement, President Roosevelt proposed that they sign the plan first. This prompted Churchill to exclaim: "What do you want me to do? Get on my hind legs and beg like Fala?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan#Churchill.27s_support_for_the_plan

The plan itself was sold to Morgenthau by a Soviet mole acting as its now believed directly under orders of Stalin to do so. Morgenthau in turn sold it to FDR who bought it hook line and sinker.

FDR in turn forced Churchill to accept it or no more loans to the British.

Stalin played FDR like a fiddle for years to the extent where FDR believed and said that Stalin believes in freedom and democracy and I honestly believe FDR had more faith and trust in Stalin then he did Churchill. These are the ugly parts of history Americans would rather forget as FDR did great things for the country. But, he was suckered by one of the top 3 worst tyrants of the 20th century (of the industrial world) into handing over Eastern Europe and half of Germany to him.

Plan Morgenthau was little more then Stalin's attempt to make America take actions that would make the German people (and the world) hate the Western Allies and side with the Soviets and it almost worked. I still to this day find FDRs love and was love in my view of Joseph Stalin hard to understand.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Another possibility: the Germans do a bit better in 1943/44, thus delaying the Allied victory for a year or so. In the summer of 1945, German cities begin disappearing in pillars of radioactive fire.
 
Another possibility: the Germans do a bit better in 1943/44, thus delaying the Allied victory for a year or so. In the summer of 1945, German cities begin disappearing in pillars of radioactive fire.

Quite.
Not even A-bombs would make Hitler want to surrender. Of course that if Hitler still refuses to leave Berlin, the WAllies will choose Berlin as its first (and hopefully only) target and Hitler is a dead duck. Someone else will give the surrender order.
 
Force Germany to pay all the costs the allies had in the European war as well as occupation costs should kill the German "wonder"
 
Let's say that the Morgenthau Plan happens as planned, while the Soviets fall into a succession crisis.

What happens next?

Also, how does a third world Germany develop? (or not develop)

Read the [FONT=Arial,]Report, On the Necessary Steps for the Promotion of German Exports.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,]Written in early 1947 by Hoover (19 pages).
The report deals with the German economy plus the European economy. Essentially he says that without a functioning German economy including heavy industry the European economy would have trouble rebuilding after the war.
[/FONT]
 
Two words: Morgenthau Plan.

This was one of the milder proposals.

In What to do With Germany Louis Nizer (yes, the lawyer), called for Germany to forfeit sovereignty, have its industry removed, and pay massive reparations.

In The Moral Conquest of Germany Emil Ludwig wanted the country to be occupied for a long, indefinite term, treated as a colony, and divided into three permanently separated parts. No Germans would be allowed to leave there for ten years.

And those were the moderates!
 
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