AHC: Germany has a large colonial empire!

[tubendo]

As a proud *ethnic* German, I want to ask if the German Empire or any state that is similar (lets say a Germany formed by the dying HRE. Also I wouldn't like to Austria count as "Germany") colonised larger portions of terriotry and fully assilimated a population with settlers (like USA, Canada and Australia today), and at least have twice as much land than OTL.

Bonus if its the actual German Empire (1850s-1918).
Extra bonus if they seize it from Britain or France!

 

[CthulhuFhtagn]

Poland, Austria, and the Czech Republic weren't big enough for you?

 

[Daniwani]

Poland, Austria, and the Czech Republic weren't big enough for you?

They certainty don't reach anything the challenge puts forward.

As for the challenge itself, the best bet would be to have the Netherlands consider itself German, on its own OR as a part of Germany (but even then I wonder if a non indie Netherlands could accomplish or how much 'Germany' well care to get into oversea's colonization based on that region alone); but given that you don't want it to be the Austrians, I'll go ahead and guess that goes triple for the Dutch.

 

[Legend-in-Exile]

As a proud *ethnic* German, I want to ask if the German Empire or any state that is similar (lets say a Germany formed by the dying HRE. Also I wouldn't like to Austria count as "Germany") colonised larger portions of terriotry and fully assilimated a population with settlers (like USA, Canada and Australia today), and at least have twice as much land than OTL.

Bonus if its the actual German Empire (1850s-1918).
Extra bonus if they seize it from Britain or France!

Why no Austrians?

You want a HRE Germany formed without Austria - one of the largest constituant members of the HRE?

Add Austria and you remove a lot of early tension between a spurned Austria and the, presumably, prussian dominated Germany, and massively increase the new nations power. Also more balance with North and South, Catholic and Protestant would also remove a lot of early problems.

'Germanising' Poland, Bohemia, Croatia and any other lands makes Germany a huge contiguous entity. Which would not have the likelihood of losing all that territory to independence movements.

To have the overseas empire you seem to want, with the conditions you imposed, you need really early unification so that there is still a number of viable colonies available, no Bismark as he seemed generally anti these kinds of adventures, masses and masses of spare money and population and most importantly a Kaiser who is keen on the idea and doesn't mind annoying all of his neighbours.

Overseas colonies for a land based power like Germany- not a huge coastline or naval tradition there- require masses of investment not only in the colonies themselves, but in a navy too. Such naval buildup leads to trouble with already established naval powers. So you need either a fantastic diplomat or a skilled admiralty. Or ideally both. The first to keep the peace while you expand rather aggressively and the second to win a naval war against all odds should it come to that.

Now you just need to keep the colonies happy, or see them drain even more resources. Whether in infrastructure or independence movements.

 

[Tordenskjold]

Germany wins WWI early with a French surrender and isolated Britain, grabs up French colonies in West Africa and takes Belgian Congo to form a coherent stretch of colonies from west to east. In the 30s a slowing German economy leads many go and settle in the African colonies and start farms, plantations etc. as a way to circumvent unemployment in Germany itself, in the 60s-70s the colonies have significant (5-15% or so) ethnically German populations, a general shift in attitude leads to greater represenation for the colonies and eventually the adaptation of a Commonwealth-like system. By the 2000s the German Commonwealth consists of Germany in Europe and ethnically mixed (like South America) colonies like Congo, Tanigiyika and German Ivory Coast etc.

I have no idea about the plausibility of such a scenario, and it assumes a lot f things go right for Germany, but it's the best I could htink of given your premises.

 

[machine3589]

Germany wins WWI early with a French surrender and isolated Britain, grabs up French colonies in West Africa and takes Belgian Congo to form a coherent stretch of colonies from west to east. In the 30s a slowing German economy leads many go and settle in the African colonies and start farms, plantations etc. as a way to circumvent unemployment in Germany itself, in the 60s-70s the colonies have significant (5-15% or so) ethnically German populations, a general shift in attitude leads to greater represenation for the colonies and eventually the adaptation of a Commonwealth-like system. By the 2000s the German Commonwealth consists of Germany in Europe and ethnically mixed (like South America) colonies like Congo, Tanigiyika and German Ivory Coast etc.

I have no idea about the plausibility of such a scenario, and it assumes a lot f things go right for Germany, but it's the best I could htink of given your premises.

The only German colony in Africa suitable for settler colonialism was German South-West Africa (today called Namibia), and predictably it contained the only colonial German settler population of any note.

About the rest, if Germany somehow manages to get the whole of its planned "Mittelafrika" scheme (which requires most of the Royal Navy to visit a Locker of a certain man called Davy Jones), then Germany can concievably completely colonise Angola and Namibia. However, most potential colonists would most likely go to the United States sooner than in Sub-Saharan Africa, seeing how whole millions of Germans went to the USA in OTL compared to the low tens of thousands that settled in Namibia.

 

[machine3589]

'Germanising' Poland, Bohemia, Croatia and any other lands makes Germany a huge contiguous entity. Which would not have the likelihood of losing all that territory to independence movements.

Croatia was never really a target for Germanization. Istria perhaps, but Slovenia was about as south as even the wildest (pre-Nazi) definitions of "Greater Germany" extended to.

To have the overseas empire you seem to want, with the conditions you imposed, you need really early unification so that there is still a number of viable colonies available, no Bismark as he seemed generally anti these kinds of adventures, masses and masses of spare money and population and most importantly a Kaiser who is keen on the idea and doesn't mind annoying all of his neighbours.

Overseas colonies for a land based power like Germany- not a huge coastline or naval tradition there- require masses of investment not only in the colonies themselves, but in a navy too. Such naval buildup leads to trouble with already established naval powers. So you need either a fantastic diplomat or a skilled admiralty. Or ideally both. The first to keep the peace while you expand rather aggressively and the second to win a naval war against all odds should it come to that.

Now you just need to keep the colonies happy, or see them drain even more resources. Whether in infrastructure or independence movements.

Well, considering that the wholesale colonization of Africa and Asia started quite late, there is some room for a Germany that unites earlier or one that has an establishment more oriented towards colonies to have a larger overseas Empire.

But compared to the "old countries", like France, Spain and Britain, Germany was considerably late to the colonial game. Perhaps a more cnetralized HRE (preferably one that keeps the Netherlands) can participate in the colonization of the Americas?

 

[AussieHawker]

The only German colony in Africa suitable for settler colonialism was German South-West Africa (today called Namibia), and predictably it contained the only colonial German settler population of any note.

About the rest, if Germany somehow manages to get the whole of its planned "Mittelafrika" scheme (which requires most of the Royal Navy to visit a Locker of a certain man called Davy Jones), then Germany can concievably completely colonise Angola and Namibia. However, most potential colonists would most likely go to the United States sooner than in Sub-Saharan Africa, seeing how whole millions of Germans went to the USA in OTL compared to the low tens of thousands that settled in Namibia.

Well Namibia according to Wikipedia only had 228,910 people in 1921. Today it is only 2 million. Maybe the Germans are worse off in the colonial scramble and only get Namibia and a few small pieces of worthless land.

To try and get it to be worth something they start encouraging White settlement. They could probaly also get East European migrants like Russian Jews to settle as well.

Of course to keep it they have to win WW1 or prevent it happening.

They could probaly also get Boers in to help boost the population.

 

[Legend-in-Exile]

Croatia was never really a target for Germanization. Istria perhaps, but Slovenia was about as south as even the wildest (pre-Nazi) definitions of "Greater Germany" extended to.



Well, considering that the wholesale colonization of Africa and Asia started quite late, there is some room for a Germany that unites earlier or one that has an establishment more oriented towards colonies to have a larger overseas Empire.

But compared to the "old countries", like France, Spain and Britain, Germany was considerably late to the colonial game. Perhaps a more cnetralized HRE (preferably one that keeps the Netherlands) can participate in the colonization of the Americas?

I know Croatia wasn't iotl but an expansionist Germany (including Austria) may attempt to do so (and still partially match op's requested conditions)

As for Africa, Germany forming earlier would have more options and more time to jockey for position among the other colonisers. Also I recall a potential sale of Hokkaido that could have happened had the German leadership been inclined or felt the time was ripe.

 

[Simreeve]

North Borneo, too, perhaps?

 

[RavenMM]

let the austrians win the 30 years war and keep in controle of the HRE coasts and shipping. Add some centralisation and there you are, more german colonies.

 

[Tanc49]

What about during the boer wars, the boers decide to declare themselves German to piss off the british?

It looks like something the boers would do. Then they wouldn't accept actual german authority or tax raising but they would technically be German and united to the Namibia colony.

I can imagine the situation where they declare themselves German without warning Berlin or any German official first, that would be quite funny

 

[Al-numbers]

If you want to go for the exotic, then how about North Borneo? Anyone could have gotten the place, and I really do mean anyone. The Sarawak White Rajahs, The British, The Dutch, The Spanish, Austria-Hungary (seriously, an Austrian baron literally got a lease to the area in 1888)... there was a lot of horse-trading between the colonial powers as to who will get it. Heck, the United States even had a small settlement over there dating back to 1866!!

Besides, imagine having the tallest mountain in South-East Asia under your flag...

 

[machine3589]

Well Namibia according to Wikipedia only had 228,910 people in 1921. Today it is only 2 million. Maybe the Germans are worse off in the colonial scramble and only get Namibia and a few small pieces of worthless land.

To try and get it to be worth something they start encouraging White settlement. They could probaly also get East European migrants like Russian Jews to settle as well.

Of course to keep it they have to win WW1 or prevent it happening.

They could probaly also get Boers in to help boost the population.

To get a German majority in Namibia you'd only have to prevent WWI or the German defeat in that war. Further German settlement and the fact that the country was (and remained) sparsely populated would have seen to that.

I know Croatia wasn't iotl but an expansionist Germany (including Austria) may attempt to do so (and still partially match op's requested conditions).

I sincerely doubt it: there's a reason why IOTL there was a "Drang nach Osten" and not "Nach Süden". And even if they're going south, then the Germans would probably go after the actual HRE territories in Noth Italy; they are much more valuable than Croatia. Not to mention that the Germans would have to take large parts of Western Hungary as well.

 

[Driftless]

Germany wins WWI early with a French surrender and isolated Britain, grabs up French colonies in West Africa and takes Belgian Congo to form a coherent stretch of colonies from west to east. In the 30s a slowing German economy leads many go and settle in the African colonies and start farms, plantations etc. as a way to circumvent unemployment in Germany itself, in the 60s-70s the colonies have significant (5-15% or so) ethnically German populations, a general shift in attitude leads to greater represenation for the colonies and eventually the adaptation of a Commonwealth-like system. By the 2000s the German Commonwealth consists of Germany in Europe and ethnically mixed (like South America) colonies like Congo, Tanigiyika and German Ivory Coast etc.

I have no idea about the plausibility of such a scenario, and it assumes a lot f things go right for Germany, but it's the best I could htink of given your premises.

The only German colony in Africa suitable for settler colonialism was German South-West Africa (today called Namibia), and predictably it contained the only colonial German settler population of any note.

About the rest, if Germany somehow manages to get the whole of its planned "Mittelafrika" scheme (which requires most of the Royal Navy to visit a Locker of a certain man called Davy Jones), then Germany can concievably completely colonise Angola and Namibia. However, most potential colonists would most likely go to the United States sooner than in Sub-Saharan Africa, seeing how whole millions of Germans went to the USA in OTL compared to the low tens of thousands that settled in Namibia.

Why not German East Africa (Tanganyika, Rwanda, Burundi)?

 

[Legend-in-Exile]

I sincerely doubt it: there's a reason why IOTL there was a "Drang nach Osten" and not "Nach Süden". And even if they're going south, then the Germans would probably go after the actual HRE territories in Noth Italy; they are much more valuable than Croatia. Not to mention that the Germans would have to take large parts of Western Hungary as well.

Well my thinking was looking for small ethnic groups bordering the new Germany who could potentially be assimilated without attracting the ire of neighbouring powers. Croatians were the most likely of the Balkan groups because of their Catholocism which given Austrians and South Germans sharing that faith would remove one impediment to assimilation.

Like I say I was working along the lines drawn out by the OP and trying to create the largest plausible homogenous German Empire. I'll admit the Croats might be a stretch but that is as far south as I would go.

As to Italy, I was working under the assumption that attempts to annex parts of a recently reunited Italy may cause war and saddle Germany with a hostile local population who would be aided by their cultural kin in the remainser of Italy. (That's why Croatians seemed more likely - very few would be outside of tge empire)

All this is probably moot as a Germany including the Austrian empire would likely tip the balance in europe so far there would be a war anyway.

 

[Tordenskjold]

Why not German East Africa (Tanganyika, Rwanda, Burundi)?

My thoughts exactly. Tanganyika/Tanzania was a prime target for British nationals setting out to form farms in Africa along with Kenya. Rwanda is relatively fertile land and already had a rather high population (for a pre-industrial society) when the Germans came around, it could potentionally sustain a lot more people through heavy agricultural investments. Much the same goes for Burundi.

 

[Socrates]

My thoughts exactly. Tanganyika/Tanzania was a prime target for British nationals setting out to form farms in Africa along with Kenya. Rwanda is relatively fertile land and already had a rather high population (for a pre-industrial society) when the Germans came around, it could potentionally sustain a lot more people through heavy agricultural investments. Much the same goes for Burundi.

Not many Brits ended up in Tanzania - mainly because the Germans made the place so poor - but it certainly had larger areas of potentially "white highlands" than Kenya.

I think Burundi and Rwanda are far too densely packed to fit in more people.

 

[machine3589]

Well my thinking was looking for small ethnic groups bordering the new Germany who could potentially be assimilated without attracting the ire of neighbouring powers. Croatians were the most likely of the Balkan groups because of their Catholocism which given Austrians and South Germans sharing that faith would remove one impediment to assimilation.

Like I say I was working along the lines drawn out by the OP and trying to create the largest plausible homogenous German Empire. I'll admit the Croats might be a stretch but that is as far south as I would go.

As to Italy, I was working under the assumption that attempts to annex parts of a recently reunited Italy may cause war and saddle Germany with a hostile local population who would be aided by their cultural kin in the remainser of Italy. (That's why Croatians seemed more likely - very few would be outside of tge empire)

All this is probably moot as a Germany including the Austrian empire would likely tip the balance in europe so far there would be a war anyway.

The point about North Italy I mentioned was about a Germany that unifies before the 19th century. By the foundation of the German Empire, the idea of what constitutes "Grossdeutschland" is pretty established, and few other changes can be made other than Eastwards or perhaps a bit Westwards (a lot of German nationalists even excluded Slovenia from their ideal Germany).

 

[Socrates]

Didn't the Ustase claim Gothic descent?