AHC: Germany and Italy unify in 1848

[Velkas]

Exactly what it says on the tin.

Find a way to have a liberal unified Germany and a liberal unified Italy following the revolutions of 1848. But the Hapsburg Empire must remain in place. The unified Germany must be along the Kleindeutchland model (excluding Austria and Bohemia), but the unified Italy may or may not include territories formerly under Austrian control. Hungary must remain under Austrian control.

I want to know some different ways this can occur for a TL that I'm planning...

 

[Wolfpaw]

Pretty hard seeing as how they don't even share a border...

 

[Lord Grattan]

Exactly what it says on the tin.

Find a way to have a liberal unified Germany and a liberal unified Italy following the revolutions of 1848. But the Hapsburg Empire must remain in place. The unified Germany must be along the Kleindeutchland model (excluding Austria and Bohemia), but the unified Italy may or may not include territories formerly under Austrian control. Hungary must remain under Austrian control.

I want to know some different ways this can occur for a TL that I'm planning...

I presume that you mean a unified Germany and a separate unified Italy, correct?

 

[Velkas]

I presume that you mean a unified Germany and a separate unified Italy, correct?

Yes, I did. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

 

[Esopo]

Northern Italy could be unified if the sardinian army manages to expell the austrians from italy. But to see the whole peninsula unified you will have to wait some time even in this case...

 

[Monty Burns]

If the Prussian king accepts the crown, German unification is easy with a Kleindeutsche Lösung.

Now Italy is more difficult. Piedmont-Sardinia could unite Italy - but IMHO that could only be made through a victorious war against Austria, with the excitet Italians of the other Italian states starting revolutions to join the "liberation war" and unite the nation. I doubt that the papal state and the two Sicilies can defend themselves against such revolutions - with Sardinia keeping the Austrians out, France preoccupied by internal unrest and unifying Germany, Britain not likely to help the Southern Italian states and the Russians - if at all - busy elsewhere, war in the South will likely simmer on until the Austrians accept an armistice, and then the victorious Sardinian armies (by then being called "Italian" and "National") would turn South to end up the last remnants of the old order.

The difficult part is to have AH survive largely intact with Germany in the North at least considering to help its German brothers, Italy in the South winning the war, and the Hungarians in open rebellion.

 

[wolf_brother]

AHEM...

But seriously, its going to depend on your POD. You say you want the Kleindeutsche Lösung, however if Germany unifies in 1848 it will very likely be into the Großdeutschland, resulting in a Hungary that is very likely independent; however it might still be held within the Hapsburgs domain. On the other hand though it might be under Russian occupation, or at least influence. Or it could be a strong vibrant state all its own. As well German-held Poland might be able to break away as well. As towards German Unification did it come about due to a more moderate Prussian leadership? Or by radical revolution? In regards to the Risorgimento is unification led primarily by Savoyard Piedmont as in OTL, or are the Central Italian republics more successful ITTL? What about the Two Sicilies? Just how much of 'Italy' or 'Germany' are united in this scenario?

Also, what of the the 'minor' revolutions of 1848-49 in Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden-Norway, Romania, Serbia-Croatia, Turkey, Switzerland, Spain, Ireland, and Britain successful as well ITTL? If not, why not, when the Italians and Germans are? What's the difference from OTL?

 

[PoeFacedKilla]

i don't know much about italian unification, but if Germany unifies in 1848 its going to include Austria; in fact in almost happened (i'll post a link to w/e the plan was called when I wake up.

Plus, wouldn't you rather have a Grossdeutschland? (i know i sure would)

 

[Maponus]

Karl Marx called for this.

That is all.

 

[Velkas]

Anyone know some good resources (websites, books, etc.) that I can use for information on the 1848 Revolutions?

If the Prussian king accepts the crown, German unification is easy with a Kleindeutsche Lösung.

But how to get him to accept the crown without significantly changing his personality (which would most likely result in a bunch of earlier butterflies)?

The difficult part is to have AH survive largely intact with Germany in the North at least considering to help its German brothers, Italy in the South winning the war, and the Hungarians in open rebellion.

Perhaps I shouldn't have it survive. But I thought a surviving Austria-Hungary, as a reactionary puppet state of Russia and on the verge of collapse, would make for an interesting balance of power.

AHEM...

Thanks. Though I'm sort of disinclined to look at 1848 timelines, as I'm afraid I'll end up copying them, and won't be able to make the timeline my own.

But seriously, its going to depend on your POD. You say you want the Kleindeutsche Lösung, however if Germany unifies in 1848 it will very likely be into the Großdeutschland, resulting in a Hungary that is very likely independent; however it might still be held within the Hapsburgs domain. On the other hand though it might be under Russian occupation, or at least influence. Or it could be a strong vibrant state all its own. As well German-held Poland might be able to break away as well. As towards German Unification did it come about due to a more moderate Prussian leadership? Or by radical revolution? In regards to the Risorgimento is unification led primarily by Savoyard Piedmont as in OTL, or are the Central Italian republics more successful ITTL? What about the Two Sicilies? Just how much of 'Italy' or 'Germany' are united in this scenario?

Also, what of the the 'minor' revolutions of 1848-49 in Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden-Norway, Romania, Serbia-Croatia, Turkey, Switzerland, Spain, Ireland, and Britain successful as well ITTL? If not, why not, when the Italians and Germans are? What's the difference from OTL?

Okay definately some interesting things to think about. Maybe it'll be more interesting to go all out, and have the Revolutions of 1848 leave behind a completely unrecognisable Europe, when the dust finally settles.

i don't know much about italian unification, but if Germany unifies in 1848 its going to include Austria; in fact in almost happened (i'll post a link to w/e the plan was called when I wake up.

As long as the Hapsburg Empire remains in place, I really doubt that they'd want to join a united liberal Germany. If the regime topples, it seems much more likely.

Plus, wouldn't you rather have a Grossdeutschland? (i know i sure would)

Okay, what makes a Großdeutschland more interesting, other than the fact that Germany united along the Kliendeutschland model IOTL? What would it look like as a country?

Karl Marx called for this.

That is all.

Ah, yes. The success of the Revolutions of 1848 in directly proportional to the satisfaction of figures such as Karl Marx, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, and Mikhail Bakunin.

 

[PoeFacedKilla]

Okay, what makes a Großdeutschland more interesting, other than the fact that Germany united along the Kliendeutschland model IOTL? What would it look like as a country?

It would be more interesting because Germany would have ports on the medy, which would allow for a larger navy and a more powerful armed forces all together.

It would also be a real unification of Germany (the geographical term, not the country) and anyone who loves the german people should want to see that right?

The country would look almost like the third reich, only with the parts of Austria lost to Italy still in place.
and I expect hungary would become part of the empire just not a part of Germany, a German ruled land if you will.

 

[wolf_brother]

It would be more interesting because Germany would have ports on the med

Yeah.. That's not going to happen. Even with a radical revolutionary German state stemming from a successful Vienna upspring, there's no way the Italian revolutionaries, either the radicals or the Savoyards, don't take advantage of Hapsburg weakness and seize Trieste.

expect hungary would become part of the empire just not a part of Germany, a German ruled land if you will.

This is even more ASB.

 

[Eurofed]

Yeah.. That's not going to happen. Even with a radical revolutionary German state stemming from a successful Vienna upspring, there's no way the Italian revolutionaries, either the radicals or the Savoyards, don't take advantage of Hapsburg weakness and seize Trieste.

Yep. Moreover, German revolutionaries were not very interested in owning Trento and Trieste, especially not to the point of starting another war when Schleswig-Holstein was already on the plate. Italian revolutionaries were very much interested. You may guess the outcome.