AHC: Germanic faith "reconquista"

This is one of the most unplausible threads I have ever created, but I still think that with the right PoD, most likely a "great man PoD" this still can be realized, basically a germanic pagan "reconquista" of northern europe

europe_800.jpg

This is a religious map of europe and north africa around the early 850 AD, of course they were a lot of christians under the Umayads and some pagan remnants on britain and Frisia.

The idea is to have the germanic pagans to expand back into their lost territories, all the way to Bavaria, is this possible? You win bonus points if they also take land from the slavic pagans.
 
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No takers? I know that christianity is too strong, but maybe they can be focused elsewhere while East francia and lotharingia take the blunt of the pagan invasion.
 
Do the conquests need to stick around, or can they be temporary? Because if they can be temporary you might enjoy my signature TL.

But permanently conquered and permanently pagan? That's probably never going to happen. At most you could get more pagan conquests, but they'd probably convert in a couple of generations anyway. 850 is too late- you'd need generations of established traditions for this to work, which is something the Germanic pagans didn't have. The pagan remnants in Frisia and Saxony did exist at the time, but paganism had died out twice in Britain- once with the Celts and once with the Anglo-Saxons, whose religion was limited mostly to the elite and warrior classes. You'd need a very different Christianity, which means a Constantine the Great PoD.
 
Back up a few centuries, you can save the Norse pantheon easier than its continental cousin with your current PoD (and even then it'll be molasses going up hill in January during a snow storm).
 
Do the conquests need to stick around, or can they be temporary? Because if they can be temporary you might enjoy my signature TL.

But permanently conquered and permanently pagan? That's probably never going to happen. At most you could get more pagan conquests, but they'd probably convert in a couple of generations anyway. 850 is too late- you'd need generations of established traditions for this to work, which is something the Germanic pagans didn't have. The pagan remnants in Frisia and Saxony did exist at the time, but paganism had died out twice in Britain- once with the Celts and once with the Anglo-Saxons, whose religion was limited mostly to the elite and warrior classes. You'd need a very different Christianity, which means a Constantine the Great PoD.

"Died out" is a pretty strong term, considering the depth of belief in folklore and superstitions in the rural population. "Been conquered" might suit it better; the old Pagan view of the world and its residents (other than the divinities, which were incompatible with monotheism and coulden't be the by-definition top tier entities they'd have to be anyway if subdued) still existing, but under the reign and power of Christ. Similar to how they themselves were conquered; yah, the guys who used to wear the crowns are dead and there's a new set of laws and people at the top, but we're all still here and our traditions will be adapted to the new rules, not lost whole-cloth. Over the centuries though you're certainly right... just probably not yet by 850 from what I've read.

You're also right on the differences between Christianity and Germanic Paganism though: the later being a far more individualized, bussiness-like relationship between specific humans and relatively disinterested gods. To be an effective missionary/crusading faith, you need to have a unified doctrine that can be conveyed to those not raised in it, the notion that the divine actively wants/cares about its faith being spread, an institutional bent so you can end up with bodies who can co-ordinate the process and resources that make conversion on a large scale possible, potential motivations for new converts (ideally woven into the structure of the faith itself), ect. Christianity had those in spades.
 
Do the conquests need to stick around, or can they be temporary? Because if they can be temporary you might enjoy my signature TL.

But permanently conquered and permanently pagan? That's probably never going to happen. At most you could get more pagan conquests, but they'd probably convert in a couple of generations anyway. 850 is too late- you'd need generations of established traditions for this to work, which is something the Germanic pagans didn't have. The pagan remnants in Frisia and Saxony did exist at the time, but paganism had died out twice in Britain- once with the Celts and once with the Anglo-Saxons, whose religion was limited mostly to the elite and warrior classes. You'd need a very different Christianity, which means a Constantine the Great PoD.

But and by using a "great person" PoD? I used 850 because is when the viking expedictions intensified, my idea is that this great person shake up the pagan stabilishment and make them reform the faith, while uses the viking incursions to reconquer some areas.
 
This is one of the most unplausible threads I have ever created, but I still think that with the right PoD, most likely a "great man PoD" this still can be realized, basically a germanic pagan "reconquista" of northern europe

europe_800.jpg

This is a religious map of europe and north africa around the early 850 AD, of course they were a lot of christians under the Umayads and some pagan remnants on britain and Frisia.

The idea is to have the germanic pagans to expand back into their lost territories, all the way to Bavaria, is this possible? You win bonus points if they also take land from the slavic pagans.
Coloring Baltic pagans and the various steppe cultures as Slavic? You're just asking me to go on an anger-infused rant.

But as for your idea, there simply wasn't an organized Germanic "faith" (I personally don't even classify various pagan beliefs as "religions", but that's just me) to go around reconquering things. Even a ""great person"" wouldn't really be able to make a permanent change in this regard.
 
As others have said organisation is key for survival here.
850 is too late to do more than perhaps stabilize a frontier. Any Holy Viking conquest will now prompt a stronger backlash, probably militarising Christian orders earlier than OTL and rolling back any indefensible territory.
 

Zagan

Donor
Coloring Baltic pagans and the various steppe cultures as Slavic? You're just asking me to go on an anger-infused rant.

But as for your idea, there simply wasn't an organized Germanic "faith" (I personally don't even classify various pagan beliefs as "religions", but that's just me) to go around reconquering things. Even a ""great person"" wouldn't really be able to make a permanent change in this regard.
Also the Proto-Romanians were Christians from the very beginning, never Pagan and certainly not Slavic either.
 
But and by using a "great person" PoD? I used 850 because is when the viking expedictions intensified, my idea is that this great person shake up the pagan stabilishment and make them reform the faith, while uses the viking incursions to reconquer some areas.

There's only so much a person can plausibly do in this kind of situation. The requirements a 'great man' would need to fulfill for this to work are pretty harsh. They'd need to:

1) Create a unified faith with a single version of each of the important myths and traditions.
2) Determine which traditions and practices are the right traditions and practices and which are wrong.
3) Get their 'right' practices and traditions accepted by the rest of Scandinavia.
4) Record these traditions for future generations and spread the new holy book- all without paper or papyrus.
5) Create an established priesthood so that the faith isn't being changed all the time.
6) Unite Scandinavia under their control so that the rest of the Norse kingdoms start following the new faith.
7) Conquer Germany.
8) Incorporate the continental Germanic pagan traditions, myths and names into the new faith.
9) Get this faith accepted by the German pagans.
10) Expel the Christians who have been there for over a generation.
11) Keep the Christians from retaking Germany.
12) keep this system in place for centuries until it's ingrained in the cultural consciousness.
 
There's only so much a person can plausibly do in this kind of situation. The requirements a 'great man' would need to fulfill for this to work are pretty harsh. They'd need to:

1) Create a unified faith with a single version of each of the important myths and traditions.
2) Determine which traditions and practices are the right traditions and practices and which are wrong.
3) Get their 'right' practices and traditions accepted by the rest of Scandinavia.
4) Record these traditions for future generations and spread the new holy book- all without paper or papyrus.
5) Create an established priesthood so that the faith isn't being changed all the time.
6) Unite Scandinavia under their control so that the rest of the Norse kingdoms start following the new faith.
7) Conquer Germany.
8) Incorporate the continental Germanic pagan traditions, myths and names into the new faith.
9) Get this faith accepted by the German pagans.
10) Expel the Christians who have been there for over a generation.
11) Keep the Christians from retaking Germany.
12) keep this system in place for centuries until it's ingrained in the cultural consciousness.

What if this process starts on the 3rd century?
 
What if this process starts on the 3rd century?

A third century PoD can keep Christianity from becoming so dominant by keeping it split into numerous sects rather than having a single imperial dogma and a handful of heresies. That gives you enough time for the traditions of the Germanics to get codified, kind of like Hinduism.
 
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