AHC: German Switzerland
- Thread starter The B
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I think the Swiss were considered a Germanic people only, not German.
Edit: It could possible, but i think the Swiss liked their independence and setup, if you know what i mean.
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Considered by whom? There were typically as many different opinions as there were people voicing them. Switzerland does not, and did not consider itself a ethnicity based state the way most European nation-states did, but rather a "nation of will" - people of four different nations/ethnicities held together by a common decision, or by a common set of enemies, or whatever people come up with.
Whether the German-speaking Swiss are Germans, or just Germanic people, or whatever, had even then about as much merit as a discussion on whether Canadians are actually Americans, or ethnically different people - wrong way to ask the question.
I have never heard that before. In the central and eastern part, regular German ist the official language, with rather minimal differences in orthography and word use. Even the local dialects are part of a Alemannic dialect continuum that begins in the north near Stuttgart. It is called Schwiizerdütsch (Swiss Deutsch/German).
If we call that Germanic, than the austrians are Germanic, too. But then the only meaning of "Germanic" is "Linguistic Germanics or Germans who do not identify with the German nation state".
Alex Richards
Donor
Yeah, that's rather dodgy.
Probably your best bet is that Marshall Brune's plan for the partition of Switzerland is enancted, and (knowing Napoleon) the Rhodanian republic is annexed to France. The Helvetic and Rhaetian Republics are added to the Confederation of the Rhine, and post war get some bits added to Austria (Graubunden for example), and the rest ends up going the way of Baden and Wurttemberg (perhaps being even added to Baden and Wurttemberg at some point) due to having been pulled into the German orbit.
Probably your best bet is that Marshall Brune's plan for the partition of Switzerland is enancted, and (knowing Napoleon) the Rhodanian republic is annexed to France. The Helvetic and Rhaetian Republics are added to the Confederation of the Rhine, and post war get some bits added to Austria (Graubunden for example), and the rest ends up going the way of Baden and Wurttemberg (perhaps being even added to Baden and Wurttemberg at some point) due to having been pulled into the German orbit.
I think it's doable. If I may say so, I recall that DoD's Germany pulled it off peacefully, though I can't recall how, exactly.
IMHO, though, it'd likely have to be thru conflict; the Swiss weren't exactly willing to be assimilated IOTL, IIRC.
I know little about this period, but could the Sonderbund war or an equivalent break the Confederation and lead to a division by the great powers?
If I remember it right, Metternich force an foreign monarch on the Swiss after 1815, which after 1848 can only stay in power with french help. This leads to an rising of pro-german nationalism in Switzerland and after a war to an integratin of the Swiss in the new HRE.
Alex Richards
Donor
It's the first step that bothers me there. Essentially the Swiss formed precisely to prevent Austrian Habsburg attempts to put influence over the country. It's certainly not going to be 1848 when the uprising occurs, more like instantaneously.
In DoD, what I had happen was that due to the behaviour of the *USA, all of the European powers were even more anti-republican than in OTL (and they were already anti-republican enough to start with). So it was a communal - not just Austrian - decision to impose a monarch on Switzerland.
The monarch chosen was the former King of Saxony, Frederick Augustus I, who was not in any way an Austrian puppet. If anything, he became more of a French puppet after losing his original throne. The long-term problem for Switzerland, though, was that this trend meant that the European powers no longer viewed Swiss neutrality as part of the balance of Europe, and so future interventions became possible.
The general trend from there was French support for the monarchy under Frederick's successors, with the first Swiss revolt in 1835, and a rather more successful one in 1849 after the French monarchy collapsed.
The problem there was that the Swiss then had considerable arguments amongst themselves. The *Sonderbundskrieg was worse than in OTL because there were monarchist factions as well - some of the Swiss wanted a monarch, albeit one with rather more limited powers, who could act as a mediating figure between the cantons. The French intervened again to restore the monarchy, but that peace lasted only a few more years before more rebellions.
Those latest rebellions saw both German and French intervention as part of a broader war, and it was this which finally saw Switzerland break apart, since a common Swiss identity had been rather weakened by the events of 1798-1859. The German-speaking parts of Switzerland were mostly included in the German Confederation, which was then a rather looser arrangement than it would later become.
If I recall correctly waht we now call Switzerland left the HRE after the 30 years war. thats 150 years to the POD - I can't see Switzerland (part or whole) giving up sovereignity voluntarily after this long time.
A sort of Polish division would be necessary.
Maybe a French victory in the 1810s and France grabs the French (and italian) speaking parts forces the "german" parts to align and ally with "Germany" (i.e. Prussia or Austria), but it won't join a HRE...
A sort of Polish division would be necessary.
Maybe a French victory in the 1810s and France grabs the French (and italian) speaking parts forces the "german" parts to align and ally with "Germany" (i.e. Prussia or Austria), but it won't join a HRE...
Alex Richards
Donor
That goes some way, but even 1835 seems far too late, and French influence is hardly going to go down better than German. The Helvetic Republic had collapsed within 3 years due to Napoleon attempting to reduce the Cantonal liberties, the Napoleonic Confederation was essentially the old Confederacy with a wee bit more central government. The King would probably have to be constantly moving between Cantons to prevent the development of a sense of favouring one canton, and he would be deeply, deeply unpopular. I can certainly picture the Waldstatten (Unterwalden, Engelberg, Schwyz, Uri, Zug and Glarus) being de facto independent or at the very least not safe for royal representatives unless in numbers. Neuchatel is the only place that might have a significant monarchist movement, and even there as soon as it became apparent that the Prince might actually get involved in government they deposed him (rather easy as he was the King of Prussia as well, so not there in any case). Plus a permanent German head of State would definately not be popular with the Ticino, Valais or Vaud, and being Lutheran would not be popular with all the Catholics. Or the Protestants in Switzerland actually who are Zwinglists for the most part.
Essentially, there's no real part of Switzerland that can give a support base for such a figure. He's too German for Neuchatel, Vaud, Valais, Ticino and the Bernese Jura, too protestant (and just generally a king and a foreigner) for the Waldstatten and Lucerne, and too Lutheran for the Protestants. He's basically going to be reliant on foreign troops from day 1, and as history has shown if you want to unify a squabbling community, just give the entire lot the impression of an outside threat (that's what the Sonderbundskrieg was about actually, Jesuits coming into Switzerland, and there it had religious support which this King isn't).
At the very least, I would expect that we're looking at near constant low level rebellion and disorder for the entire period, and frequent open conflict.
The Nazis definitely saw the Swiss and the Austrians as German rather than Germanic.
Hitler was openly insulting to the Swiss, calling them the weakest of all the Germanics, apparently not knowing about their past as mercenaries.
That was mainly because the Swiss were very clear about the fact they viewed themselves not as Germans and continued to mock and ridicule the Nazi regime, which was getting very annoying (at least until the fall of France after which Switzerland becam a lot more pliable).
But from a racial point of view the Nazis always claimed that the Swiss were Germans.
My intent was that the early monarchy had a role which was mostly symbolic, with cantonal liberty largely preserved. In essence, the early monarchy was basically limited to arbiting disputes between cantons, rather than setting policy for individual cantons. Frederick Augustus I himself was largely acted within those limits, and so wasn't seen as French influenced to start with. (The monarchy was imposed by all foreign powers, so he wasn't seen as a French puppet initially.)
The problems started when the later monarchs tried to be more than just neutral arbiters of disputes... hence from 1835 on there was low-scale revolt at best and outright rebellion at worst.
He would certainly have to move between cantons regularly, and would not be all that popular at the best of times. Actively kicking him out, though, would probably wait until he actually started trying to rule.
The kings of Saxony were actually Catholic, but ruled a Lutheran country. (Go figure, I know.) In that sense he was actually a good choice, because the history of Saxony showed that the Saxon monarchs, while they had a private faith, were scrupulous in respecting the recognised religious rights of other faiths. Catholics under the Saxon monarchs rule were not given special privileges; quite the opposite, they were excluded from rights.
Although I'd need to double-check to be sure, if memory serves Frederick Augustus was bilingual in French and German (a lot of German monarchs were), and so would be able to speak in French or German depending on which subjects he was dealing with.
I suppose low level disorder is entirely possible, but my main thoughts were that it would mostly start after 1835 because the later monarchs started trying to interpret their role as one involving actual power.
Alex Richards
Donor
It makes more sense. But it's still a very tough sell.
Funnily enough, if he's Catholic it actually makes things slightly worse (though probably ameliated by the history of religious tolerance). The French speaking areas, and the two 'powerhouse cantons' of Berna and Zurich were Reformed, while the most highly catholic areas correspond directly with the areas most likely to be upset at any foreign influence.
I think I'll just file this as one of those things that I can see could happen if everything went in the right way (and Lord knows I've got a fair amount of that in my Romanov TL), but which I (as a purely personal opinion) consider to be very heavily towards the implausible end of the scale.
Funnily enough, if he's Catholic it actually makes things slightly worse (though probably ameliated by the history of religious tolerance). The French speaking areas, and the two 'powerhouse cantons' of Berna and Zurich were Reformed, while the most highly catholic areas correspond directly with the areas most likely to be upset at any foreign influence.
I think I'll just file this as one of those things that I can see could happen if everything went in the right way (and Lord knows I've got a fair amount of that in my Romanov TL), but which I (as a purely personal opinion) consider to be very heavily towards the implausible end of the scale.