AHC: German navy viewed as more important than German army

[rjd1997]

The German navy, especially the surface navy, in both world wars never really got the chance to shine. In the first, they spent the majority of the war bottled up in port and were forced to retreat in the large battles they did participate in. In the second, they were laughably outnumbered and outgunned. Certainly, they achieved successes. They helped secure victory on the eastern front with their operations in the Baltic in WW1. The Bismarck struck a massive blow against British morale when it sunk the hood (which became meaningless shortly thereafter with that ship’s sinking). However, German successes were overwhelming the result of the army and Air Force. This may very well have been inevitable. Germany’s strategic situation made its army more important than its navy for victory.

The Wehrmacht tends to be portrayed as far more competent and powerful in pop culture than it actually was. For example: Movies rarely mention the numerous technical problems German tanks suffered when they show them as near unstoppable monsters killing numerous allied tanks. The clean Wehrmacht myth certainly doesn’t help this.

Here is the challenge: with a POD no earlier than 1900, make the average late 20th century/early 21st century person, in Germany and elsewhere, view the German navy as having been more competent and having contributed more to the war effort in either or both world wars than the army. This doesn’t have to actually be true, nor does Germany have to win the war(s). This applies to the wider pop culture, things like movies and internet chat boards, not the more accurate knowledge of actual historians, although bonus points if historians think so too I guess. For example: Movies could portray the German navy as hyper competent and a historical German admiral could take the place of Rommel as a “good German”. Most likely, you would need the German army achieve far less success, comparatively and absolutely, for this to happen.

Not sure if this can be done, have at it guys!

 

[Nedl13]

I suppose if you have the German navy beat the British in the battle of Jutland, which would break the blockade that the British imposed, but have Germany still loose the war. The navy would be viewed in a more positive light in Germany. This, in turn, may lead to Hitler being willing to commit more resources to build up the navy, thus leading it to be able to go toe to toe with the Royal Navy. Whereas in our timeline, the army was the most funded, and the navy lacked all the u-boats Döntz recommended it have, in this time, the army may lack panzers. This means Germany would be unable to use the blitzkrieg and bypass the Maginot line. Meaning the Western front would degenerate into a stalemate, whereas there would be a multitude of naval engagements. These wouldn't really change the war, but would definitely portray the navy as being more competent. Germany would loose the war much quicker in this timeline. Maybe Döntz would take the place as the "good German"

 

[RamscoopRaider]

For the German Navy being more important in general that's fairly easy. Germany survives as an independent great power with an SSBN based nuclear deterrent, viola the navy is more important than the army to the security of the state

In an actual World War rather tougher. Probably best bet is WWI. The UK stays out, maybe Home Rule blows up early, what have you. Fighting through France is a long bloody slog, while the KM beats the MN up in a few brilliant colonial actions. Eventually the Italians join in and outflank the French after the MN takes particularly heavy losses, and thus credit for beating France goes to Italy. Russia is beat in part through major amphib ops supported by the navy after destroying the Russian Baltic Fleet, with Austria stealing a bunch of the credit on land. At some point Japan goes in to try to steal German colonies, and the HSF sends a major force and wins a major battle against the IJN, viola lots of glory, with the Navy getting more of it than the army. As such history would portray the Army as the guys who kept throwing men into meatgrinders, while the Navy beat up the French enough the Italians joined in, delivered the fatal blow against Russia and beat Japan on its lonesome,

 

[rjd1997]

For the German Navy being more important in general that's fairly easy. Germany survives as an independent great power with an SSBN based nuclear deterrent, viola the navy is more important than the army to the security of the state

In an actual World War rather tougher. Probably best bet is WWI. The UK stays out, maybe Home Rule blows up early, what have you. Fighting through France is a long bloody slog, while the KM beats the MN up in a few brilliant colonial actions. Eventually the Italians join in and outflank the French after the MN takes particularly heavy losses, and thus credit for beating France goes to Italy. Russia is beat in part through major amphib ops supported by the navy after destroying the Russian Baltic Fleet, with Austria stealing a bunch of the credit on land. At some point Japan goes in to try to steal German colonies, and the HSF sends a major force and wins a major battle against the IJN, viola lots of glory, with the Navy getting more of it than the army. As such history would portray the Army as the guys who kept throwing men into meatgrinders, while the Navy beat up the French enough the Italians joined in, delivered the fatal blow against Russia and beat Japan on its lonesome,

Didn’t even think of SSBNs. Germany lacks an equivalent of Montana or Siberia, somewhere remote and far from enemy territory to give them that crucial 10-15 mins to respond to icbm launches, so would need to construct a large number of SSBN’s in such a scenario.

Can’t help but laugh at the thought of the Italian army of all people stealing germany’s glory on land. But yeah, Britain staying out would make the Germans the ones with the biggest navy in the war. Depending on how distracted the UK is, if German ships can blockade French ports it would be ironic, that’s for sure. As for japan, how big of a task force would germany need to send to fight their circa 1915/16/17/18 fleet?

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Don’t need Britain to stay out to get the OP, but it does make it harder.

Think of how we view Lettow-Vorbeck - outnumbered, out-equipped and lacking meaningful support, yet a brilliant tactician. But in the hard light of day his achievements are almost insignificant in the grand scheme of things. We still view him in a positive light and he was a celebrity on his return to Germany.
A Kaiserliche Marine that builds more cruisers or utilises it’s vessels as commerce raiders more effectively could build an image as hardy souls, fighting on undefeated spread around the globe as the Heer floundered in the mud of Alsace and Poland.

Post war, it is the white and the black uniform of the Navy that draws the admiration of the public and funds are found to maintain as much of a Navy as can be allowed, with plans for expansion as soon as Versailles can be cast aside...

 

[Riain]

I doubt the navy could be seen as important as the army, but certainly in WW1 it could have been an important contributor to victory.

The biggest problem was its command structure; the Heer was commanded by Moltke, the RN by Jackie Fisher but the KM was commanded (in terms of autorising actions and deploying ship/units between fleets and naval stations) by the Kaiser, who was occupied with his other tasks and not qualified to command the KM anyway.

This meant that when Germany overcame some of its naval geographical problems by capturing forward bases in Belgium they did not exploit them; it took 17 months to station 3 just destroyers there, 22 months to deploy a flotilla and 2 years to deploy 2 flotillas. They never deployed patrol uboats or anything with big guns like a coast defence battleship or monitor. Better command would have perhaps made more effort to capture forward bases and likely utilised them better, adding considerable value to the KMs war effort.

 

[Michele]

Huh... why?

Germany is a continental power, with few and insignificant offshore assets in WWI and none in WWII. It is obvious that the army and the air force are more important than the navy. It's the right thing to do.

That said, the OP's summary entirely ignores that Germany did engage in anti-navy and in particular anti-shipping warfare in both world wars, and that it enjoyed some degree of success with that. The Kaiserliche Marine and the Kriegsmarine did not include only largely unused surface combatants - it included the U-Boote too. That's the Battle of the Atlantic, and it cost the Allies some serious effort and casualties.

An easy way to make the German navies more important and therefore more relevant in public perception is pretty obvious, and it has been the topic of a hundred threads here (so go read them if you wish): less battleships, more subs.

 

[anotherlurker]

Late WW1 victory gives you a continent where everyones lands besides Germany and the A-H lands broken and devastated, they simply can not afford to have large armies threatening Germany any more or the smaller armies are part of a German led block. The only threat is now the UK and possible overseas threats like the USA or Japan, the navy can now grow to disappropriate size compared to earlier decades and thus is more important.

 

[GarethC]

Alt-WW1 - Germany doesn't give Austria a blank cheque and doesn't mobilize.

Britain presses France not to get involved with announcements of A-L plebiscites.

Austro-Russian conflict spills into Germany as Russia seeks to extend the flank.

German mobilization leads to stabilization of lines along the Oder.

Navy runs relief convoys into Konigsberg under Russian guns over the winter of 1914-5 and is the lifeline for the city.

Spring 1915 Germany defeats Russian Baltic fleet to defend landings at Danzig in ur-Inchon that lead to encirclement and destruction of Russian 1st and 2nd Armies, German advance across Baltic states and ur-Brest-Litovsk.

 

[NiGHTS]

I think Germany would have to firmly win World War 1 and build up a fleet from then on that is able to rival or even outright surpass that of the British's. That way, in some alt World War 2,as the culmination of Anglo-German tensions, most of the fighting will be based on the sea.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Huh... why?

Germany is a continental power, with few and insignificant offshore assets in WWI and none in WWII. It is obvious that the army and the air force are more important than the navy. It's the right thing to do.

That said, the OP's summary entirely ignores that Germany did engage in anti-navy and in particular anti-shipping warfare in both world wars, and that it enjoyed some degree of success with that. The Kaiserliche Marine and the Kriegsmarine did not include only largely unused surface combatants - it included the U-Boote too. That's the Battle of the Atlantic, and it cost the Allies some serious effort and casualties.

An easy way to make the German navies more important and therefore more relevant in public perception is pretty obvious, and it has been the topic of a hundred threads here (so go read them if you wish): less battleships, more subs.

Exactly the same reason why the Royal Navy was massively cut down in the 70s and 80s - the 'correct' need to stand up a large army (BAOR) and Airforce (RAFG) in West Germany at the expense of the RN.

 

[Riain]

Exactly the same reason why the Royal Navy was massively cut down in the 70s and 80s - the 'correct' need to stand up a large army (BAOR) and Airforce (RAFG) in West Germany at the expense of the RN.

Arrrrgghhh blasphemy! Call the villagers to get their pitchforks.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

Make Germany an island.

 

[Grand Prince Paul II.]

Germany is a continental power, with few and insignificant offshore assets in WWI and none in WWII. It is obvious that the army and the air force are more important than the navy. It's the right thing to do.

Germany is a global trade power, with few or insignificant threats on the continent. It is obvious that the navy is more important than the army. It is the right thing to do.

 

[rjd1997]

Huh... why?

Germany is a continental power, with few and insignificant offshore assets in WWI and none in WWII. It is obvious that the army and the air force are more important than the navy. It's the right thing to do.

That said, the OP's summary entirely ignores that Germany did engage in anti-navy and in particular anti-shipping warfare in both world wars, and that it enjoyed some degree of success with that. The Kaiserliche Marine and the Kriegsmarine did not include only largely unused surface combatants - it included the U-Boote too. That's the Battle of the Atlantic, and it cost the Allies some serious effort and casualties.

An easy way to make the German navies more important and therefore more relevant in public perception is pretty obvious, and it has been the topic of a hundred threads here (so go read them if you wish): less battleships, more subs.

You answered your own question. It’s an AHC because it is an unlikely scenario. Plus notice I specified that it doesn’t actually have to be true, it just has to be the perception of the public. Yes, the U-boats were a pain to deal with, but let’s be honest they never really got close to winning the war for Germany, even when it was just Britain left standing against them. If building more U-boats changes that, then that can certainly fulfill the challenge.

Plus I’ll admit one of my favorite TLs involved the High Seas Fleet kicking the Royal Navy to the curb and at one point in that TL the German army leadership were grumbling about the navy stealing the glory when it was supposed to stay in port while the army won the war.

 

[Protagoras]

I'm with Nedl13. Having the Germans win a major victory at Jutland strikes me as absolutely the way to go for this. Difficult, but not impossible; while OTL the British probably had more bad luck than the Germans, there still was some good luck and some bad luck on both sides. Give the British all the bad luck and the Germans all the good luck, and that might be enough to overcome the British numbers advantage. If there is to be one POD, Jellicoe deploys to the west to hasten the engagement, losing all the advantages he gained OTL by deploying to the east, and the cordite and poor British ammunition handling practices cause British losses almost as soon as the engagement begins, both demoralizing and confusing the British and emboldening Scheer to press the attack. Things just get worse for the British thereafter.

Even a wipeout of the British dreadnoughts actually present at Jutland (probably too much to hope for, and the more intense battle that would be needed to get close would almost certainly involve more German losses as well) would still leave RN with a surprising number of ships, and the HSF ships mostly had limited range, so this probably isn't enough to get a German victory in WWI (Germany's ability to interfere with British trade and transport is only increased modestly). However, after this HSF would presumably continue to carry out major operations in the North Sea, and their ability to nail down their area of operations would stand in stark contrast to the eventual failures of the German army.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Arrrrgghhh blasphemy! Call the villagers to get their pitchforks.

As an ex part timer in the Grey Funnel line - I feel sick every time I say it

 

[Riain]

As an ex part timer in the Grey Funnel line - I feel sick every time I say it

Come over to the dark side, it's great over here.

 

[herkles]

A Communist Revolution breaks out in 1919 and the Kaiser and German government set up a government in exile in German New Guinea and the German pacific islands.

 

[sts-200]

I'm only going for a 'modern view' of the success of the Germany Navies, not making them an actual success:

Make the German Navy smaller in both wars. During the Great War, have them concentrate on dominating the Baltic (thereby helping the German offensives in the East), while expanding the cruiser warfare programme (either with actual cruisers or merchant raiders). More submarines to harass the allies everywhere, but don't press harder than they did on USW
- i.e. they go for smart, asymmetric warfare, at a lower cost than OTL.
During the 2nd WW, essentially ditto, but with an immediate emphasis on submarines and merchant raiders, and perhaps have a few more ex-GW officers who go out of their way to treat survivors well.

Overall, more Langsdorffs (Graf Spee) and von Mullers (Emden), fewer von Pohls (a do-nothing GW Admiral) and Raeders; and not a Tirpitz in sight!

That might allow a modern view that the German Navies fought hard but intelligently, while taking few lives and loosing relatively few men. Compare that to the German armies who caused and took mass casualties. They might also benefit from many people's tendency to admire an underdog.

...or, there's a cheap-n-dirty way of doing much of it - have a KM officer assassinate Hitler sometime after '41.