AHC: German Colony in the Americas

raharris1973

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How about a Prussia Hudson's Bay?

WI Grossiliers and Radisson went into business for the Brandenburgers instead of England?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Médard_des_Groseilliers

Their story is on odd one, of defecting from French to English service in retaliation for the New France authorities rejection of their proposed venture of running the fur trade out of Hudson's base instead of the St. Lawrence.

In OTL they went from Canada to Boston and thence to England. What if they had gone to New Amsterdam and thence to Netherlands or some of its neighbors on the Baltic.
Make a deal with the Dutch, or with one of the Nordic states, or the Poles?



For purposes of this thread, let's say they make a deal in the 1770s with the Great Elector of Brandenburg of all people, who in OTL, began (ultimately unnsuccessful) colonial ventures in Africa, the Caribbean and India. G & R get to him earlier and scratch his colonial itch by selling him of the money to be made selling furs on the continent.

The Brandenburg, and later Prussian Hudson's Bay Company controls the territory known as "Rupert's Land" in OTL. Given competing French and English claims, it could very easily fall to either of them, but it is not a certainty, with luck, and a continual sense of other matters being a higher priority, the Prussians could hold onto the bay for quite awhile. Instead of Couriers du Bois, Brandenburger trappers (or those of any nationality who work for their company) become the jaegers der wald.

Brandenburg Hudson’s Bay (1660s to 1680s it starts) –
France can seriously endanger territory 1668-1713, if it bothers……hand it back in exchange for alliance in 1740s?
1740-1748 – English could attack it?
1750s – Prussia requested to do a sell-off in exchange for Anglo-Prussian alliance? UK had made Austrians sell-off Ostend company earlier.

If not, Prussian Arctic can be endangered again, but maybe restored in 1763. Prussia hardly in a position to make gains in the North American portion of the 7 Years War, but its service on the continent adds up to a strong claim with the British victors for Prussia to hold the territory or have it restored even if it went through a period of French occupation or of being defended mostly through British resources.



Britain has no quarrel with Prussia after 1763.
Britain occupies territory when Prussia is under French domination – ie, part of the continental system ---
Restored at Congress of Vienna ----even if not, 100 years of Prussian possession would make a permanent cultural impact on the bay.

If territory is Prussian in 1815, this hems Canada in. However, given continental alliances, the Prussians of the Bay may send some jaegers or hussars if they have any to aid the defense of Canada against American invasion. Prussians may send some colonists into the prairies, later in the 19th century. Some may make it to Oregon country. (Britain, Russia, Spain and US can all have claims too). If it gains Vancouver at least, the population can really grow and center of gravity expand.

Prussian North America as an ally of Mexico or the CSA? Major American War of conquest over Oregon country – Americans lose, or only win in a bloody war?

It won’t be tolerated past WWI, unless changed outcomes to the Mexican War or Civil War make it viable. A US war of conquest would happen and win, but, it could be enough to draw off American and British resources to allow a German victory in Europe.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Well that seems very plausible, though I dunno if Prussia would ever be an ally of the Confederates. I would assume they would assume a neutral stance like the British and French would.
 
WI Grossiliers and Radisson went into business for the Brandenburgers instead of England?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Médard_des_Groseilliers

Their story is on odd one, of defecting from French to English service in retaliation for the New France authorities rejection of their proposed venture of running the fur trade out of Hudson's base instead of the St. Lawrence.

In OTL they went from Canada to Boston and thence to England. What if they had gone to New Amsterdam and thence to Netherlands or some of its neighbors on the Baltic.
Make a deal with the Dutch, or with one of the Nordic states, or the Poles?



For purposes of this thread, let's say they make a deal in the 1770s with the Great Elector of Brandenburg of all people, who in OTL, began (ultimately unnsuccessful) colonial ventures in Africa, the Caribbean and India. G & R get to him earlier and scratch his colonial itch by selling him of the money to be made selling furs on the continent.

The Brandenburg, and later Prussian Hudson's Bay Company controls the territory known as "Rupert's Land" in OTL. Given competing French and English claims, it could very easily fall to either of them, but it is not a certainty, with luck, and a continual sense of other matters being a higher priority, the Prussians could hold onto the bay for quite awhile. Instead of Couriers du Bois, Brandenburger trappers (or those of any nationality who work for their company) become the jaegers der wald.

Brandenburg Hudson’s Bay (1660s to 1680s it starts) –
France can seriously endanger territory 1668-1713, if it bothers……hand it back in exchange for alliance in 1740s?
1740-1748 – English could attack it?
1750s – Prussia requested to do a sell-off in exchange for Anglo-Prussian alliance? UK had made Austrians sell-off Ostend company earlier.

If not, Prussian Arctic can be endangered again, but maybe restored in 1763. Prussia hardly in a position to make gains in the North American portion of the 7 Years War, but its service on the continent adds up to a strong claim with the British victors for Prussia to hold the territory or have it restored even if it went through a period of French occupation or of being defended mostly through British resources.



Britain has no quarrel with Prussia after 1763.
Britain occupies territory when Prussia is under French domination – ie, part of the continental system ---
Restored at Congress of Vienna ----even if not, 100 years of Prussian possession would make a permanent cultural impact on the bay.

If territory is Prussian in 1815, this hems Canada in. However, given continental alliances, the Prussians of the Bay may send some jaegers or hussars if they have any to aid the defense of Canada against American invasion. Prussians may send some colonists into the prairies, later in the 19th century. Some may make it to Oregon country. (Britain, Russia, Spain and US can all have claims too). If it gains Vancouver at least, the population can really grow and center of gravity expand.

Prussian North America as an ally of Mexico or the CSA? Major American War of conquest over Oregon country – Americans lose, or only win in a bloody war?

It won’t be tolerated past WWI, unless changed outcomes to the Mexican War or Civil War make it viable. A US war of conquest would happen and win, but, it could be enough to draw off American and British resources to allow a German victory in Europe.


well,

if - big if - the prussians have a colony in northern america it will be a magnet to a lot emigrants of germany... in the us civil war these people will fight WITH the union, not against it...

so you could basically have the basement of the us-german friendship... say prussia send troops and weapons to the usa - they will be not really helpfull (the dreyse 1841 isn´t as good as the dreyse 1864) but they show the will to help.

this could be the only nation of europe that support the union with something significant...

later the colony could be part of the usa or at last a friendly territory... maybe the germans sell it to the usa in the 80ties? or the people here will be one of the new states of the usa?
 
WI Grossiliers and Radisson went into business for the Brandenburgers instead of England?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Médard_des_Groseilliers

Their story is on odd one, of defecting from French to English service in retaliation for the New France authorities rejection of their proposed venture of running the fur trade out of Hudson's base instead of the St. Lawrence.

In OTL they went from Canada to Boston and thence to England. What if they had gone to New Amsterdam and thence to Netherlands or some of its neighbors on the Baltic.
Make a deal with the Dutch, or with one of the Nordic states, or the Poles?



For purposes of this thread, let's say they make a deal in the 1770s with the Great Elector of Brandenburg of all people, who in OTL, began (ultimately unnsuccessful) colonial ventures in Africa, the Caribbean and India. G & R get to him earlier and scratch his colonial itch by selling him of the money to be made selling furs on the continent.

The Brandenburg, and later Prussian Hudson's Bay Company controls the territory known as "Rupert's Land" in OTL. Given competing French and English claims, it could very easily fall to either of them, but it is not a certainty, with luck, and a continual sense of other matters being a higher priority, the Prussians could hold onto the bay for quite awhile. Instead of Couriers du Bois, Brandenburger trappers (or those of any nationality who work for their company) become the jaegers der wald.

Brandenburg Hudson’s Bay (1660s to 1680s it starts) –
France can seriously endanger territory 1668-1713, if it bothers……hand it back in exchange for alliance in 1740s?
1740-1748 – English could attack it?
1750s – Prussia requested to do a sell-off in exchange for Anglo-Prussian alliance? UK had made Austrians sell-off Ostend company earlier.

If not, Prussian Arctic can be endangered again, but maybe restored in 1763. Prussia hardly in a position to make gains in the North American portion of the 7 Years War, but its service on the continent adds up to a strong claim with the British victors for Prussia to hold the territory or have it restored even if it went through a period of French occupation or of being defended mostly through British resources.



Britain has no quarrel with Prussia after 1763.
Britain occupies territory when Prussia is under French domination – ie, part of the continental system ---
Restored at Congress of Vienna ----even if not, 100 years of Prussian possession would make a permanent cultural impact on the bay.

If territory is Prussian in 1815, this hems Canada in. However, given continental alliances, the Prussians of the Bay may send some jaegers or hussars if they have any to aid the defense of Canada against American invasion. Prussians may send some colonists into the prairies, later in the 19th century. Some may make it to Oregon country. (Britain, Russia, Spain and US can all have claims too). If it gains Vancouver at least, the population can really grow and center of gravity expand.

Prussian North America as an ally of Mexico or the CSA? Major American War of conquest over Oregon country – Americans lose, or only win in a bloody war?

It won’t be tolerated past WWI, unless changed outcomes to the Mexican War or Civil War make it viable. A US war of conquest would happen and win, but, it could be enough to draw off American and British resources to allow a German victory in Europe.

Interesting idea. Hudson's Bay ices up in the winter, though, and I don't think its really a good way to reach Manitoba or the rest of the Prarie Provinces. So I don't see the Prussian Arctic having too much of an impact, unless it also results in Prussia gaining British Columbia/Oregon, which could turn into a nice German-speaking nation.
 
There is no way Prussian North America can survive Manifest Destiny. The US will buy it or take it.

Britain was the only European power that could keep NA territory from American hands. Prussia doesn't have the navy to keep it.
 
I think it is time that we discuss the Brandenburgisch-Afrikanische Compagnie. It was a company modelled after the Dutch and British examples, trading with the usual stuff (such as slaves).

I think it could have gained small colonies in the Caribbean under somewhat better conditions. This requires improving their supply of something they were lacking. More precisely, they were somewhat short of know-how, capital, manpower, ships, a good starting harbor, other good bases, and the support of a greater economy ashore ...




There is no way Prussian North America can survive Manifest Destiny. The US will buy it or take it.

The US haven't taken a lot of territory in the West just because they can, have they?
For instance, I haven't heard about blackmailing France about taking Lousiana ...
 
I think it is time that we discuss the Brandenburgisch-Afrikanische Compagnie. It was a company modelled after the Dutch and British examples, trading with the usual stuff (such as slaves).

I think it could have gained small colonies in the Caribbean under somewhat better conditions. This requires improving their supply of something they were lacking. More precisely, they were somewhat short of know-how, capital, manpower, ships, a good starting harbor, other good bases, and the support of a greater economy ashore ...

This, essentially. The Brandenburgers leased a few islands from the Danish, so taking over the Virgin Islands is possible with enough luck, a few more are then also possible.

If you want more you have a few other scenarios:

#1: traditional North American mainland colonization, just like the Dutch, Swedes, etc. Most likely it won't work out, since Sweden for example only managed to pull it off thanks to a full treasury and it didn't survive because of the hard competition. But then again, luck might be on Brandenburg's side yet again here.

#2: absorbing over a pre-existing mainland colony through union (e.g. Dutch-Prussian or Danish-Prussian union, taking over ATL or OTL colonies of the partner)

#3: getting a mainland colony as a payment, like Guadeloupe (bad example, but...)
 

raharris1973

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Actually iserjohn's #3 is a great example

*
#3: getting a mainland colony as a payment, like Guadeloupe (bad example, but...)

Actually, Guadeloupe is a great example.


Here are some speculations I made on this in the past.

Perhaps Guadalupe is gifted to prussia in 1763 in an atl where France is staunch in refusing to return Minorca to Britain or unwilling to demolish Dunkirk fortifications. In otl those French concessions were part of the package that resulted in Fran whining back Guadalupe. Since with a more stubborn France, Britain cannot give it back, but existing British sugar interests do not want it in the imperial fold, the British decide to give it to Prussia as a reward for it's wartime alliance with Britain.



Further speculations on the pros, cons and consequences follows.
Guadalupe – captured by British arms.* Why did Britain trade back?* Was France promising to continue fighting?* Did France give up a continental territory in exchange?
Was it a unilateral British concession?* Did they provide the choice of Canada or Guadalupe?* Was Guadalupe returned because of the fears of competition in British Caribbean sugsar islands?
*
Alternative solution to deny the wealth to France but avoid disruption in British imperial system – 1) Transfer Guadalupe to Prussia.* Benefit – a) pays back Prussia for service.* B) revenue generated for Prussia enables easier repayment of loans to Britain in money, not sugar.* Drawbacks – Prussia may not want such an exposed position, Prussia worries about unnecessarily angering France, Prussia does not want to deal with naval and colonial matters, Britain does not want to add a competitor.* Britain uninterested in a giveaway, mollifying the enemy France a bit is still worth more than providing a giveaway to an ally that is heavily indebted to Britain.* Britain may be morally in Prussia’s debt, but Prussia is materially in Britain’s debt, and that is what counts.
*
Another option for Guadalupe-
*
Cede it to Hanover.* That way, it stays in friendly dynastic hands, but does not have to disrupt the British colonial system.* This is also a giveaway, and to a state that has probably earned it less than Prussia.* The main question is whether Hanover was economically separate enough from Britain that it would not upset a unified market.
*
Some possible near-term consequences from a Prussian Guadalupe – development of a Prussian fleet.* Delicate handling of relations with French planters.* Prussian involvement in slave trade.* Better state revenue for Prussia, easing some internal constraints and problems.* Worse revenue for France.
*
Possible early divergence – better Prusso-British relations.* Prussia possibly aids British in suppressing colonial rebellion. Tries to talk other eastern monarchs into the same policy.* (the alternative to this is Prussian participation in the Armed Neutrality).* France has less revenue and less of a geographic base from which to subsidize the colonial rebels.
*
(Another near-term option – Britain finds some small French territories outside of Europe to cede to not only Prussia but also Austria and Russia, to try to set them at odds with France on an enduring basis.* Maybe they all help colonial suppression?)
*
Longer-term scenario – ARW and Napoleonic era unchanged, at least in the fundamentals (perhaps there are temporary French and British reoccupations of Guadalupe, a la Louisiana) and Prussia keeps Guadalupe after the Congress of Vienna.
*
Prussia can go through 19th century with a larger fleet?* Prussia may sell the island post-slavery when its less profitable.* Prussia may develop a taste for further overseas exploration and development.* Maybe enough to get them into Australia, southern Africa or New Zealand.



Even if there is no larger Prussian colonial enterprise, it creates an interesting wrinkle in any alt-WWI, and may provide a base for expansion into the Caribbean or clashes with the US.
*
Hanoverian Guadalupe option- There will likely be British protection during Napoleonic period.* Hanover retains Guadalupe though ( at least a 50-50 chance of happening) at the Congress of Vienna. *Ernest Augustus keeps it unless Victoria is born Victor.* By default, unless consciously and insultingly occupied by the British, it is incorporated by the Prussians in 1866.* Does this cause a Monroe Doctrine crisis?
*
Hanover would be unlikely to have other colonies, but maybe it would.* Where – New Zealand? Australia?* It’s a bit difficult to see.
*
 
Prussian Arctic

I've been thinking some more raharris' Prussian HBC idea, and though, as others have pointed out, it would take some luck to work, it still seems kind of cool.

After some quick searches on wiki, it seems the British actually did colonize Manitoba from the Hudson Bay in the 19th century, though the efforts were rather marginal. Now...did colonizing Manitoba depend on any technological advances that occured in the 19th century, or could Prussia have done it, say, in the decades after the Seven Years War? Considering the amount of German immigration to the Americas IOTL I don't think finding settlers would really be a problem...but that still leaves the fact that the only way for such settlements to communicate with the outside world would be trekking over hundreds of miles of Taiga to ports that are only usable for less than half the year. If such colonies manage to survive, they'll be very spread out, and very isolated, with the inhabitants having to be self-sufficient in most respects, or at least not depend on anything that can't be made in the nearest Prussian outpost. They'd probably have lots of contact with the local Indians and Metis as well...a hybrid Indian/French Metis/German culture (probably speaking some form of German as a primary langauge, though) would be interesting. The success of the whole enterprise, IMHO, still depends on whether or not German settlement can reach the Pacific. If Prussia establishes a settlement on *British Columbia's coast before, say, 1800, then I can see Prussia (and later Germany) steering immigrants there who might otherwise go to the USA...first into the Fraser and (if their claim goes that far south) Williamette valleys, and later, when/if they get a railroad connection over the Rockies, into the Prairie itself. How it develops later would be interesting-it almost certainly wouldn't survive WWI as a German territory-either it would become an independent country or part of either the US or Canada.

Not the most likely thing in the world, I admit. Feel free to tell me if I'm just talking out my ass.
 
Well I've always thought a successful New Sweden would be the opening for German immigrants as historically the Swedes did employ alot of Germans in the area.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
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Well I've always thought a successful New Sweden would be the opening for German immigrants as historically the Swedes did employ alot of Germans in the area.

I've always thought that a longer-lasting New Sweden *or* New Netherlands could attract alot of German immigrants. As it was, New Sweden lasted only 17 years compared to about 50 for New New Netherlands.

Ironically, I brought up Hudson's Bay as a Brandenburger colony to meet the initial challenge, and for its potential knock-on effects, given the relative rise of Prussia compared to Swedes, Danes and Dutch. However, if Grossiliers and Radisson went for a different foreign backer besides the English, it would be a far more natural fit for the Swedes, Danes or even Dutch to exploit the area, fur trappers and Saami reindeer herders could all give it a try. New Sweden, if established on the Hudson, might have benefitted from being in a much less competitive area than in OTL when it was in the Atlantic seaboard.

After some quick searches on wiki, it seems the British actually did colonize Manitoba from the Hudson Bay in the 19th century, though the efforts were rather marginal. Now...did colonizing Manitoba depend on any technological advances that occured in the 19th century, or could Prussia have done it, say, in the decades after the Seven Years War? Considering the amount of German immigration to the Americas IOTL I don't think finding settlers would really be a problem...but that still leaves the fact that the only way for such settlements to communicate with the outside world would be trekking over hundreds of miles of Taiga to ports that are only usable for less than half the year.

Agree with above, the Prussians could attract a comparable number of colonists compared to the British. The Prussians would not necessarilly be the only settlers either. Scandinavians, other Germans, Poles and Scots could also move in in significant numbers.

Overall, while I could see viable (though limited) settlements get established, probably more Germans would move to Pennsylvania and the Atlantic seaboard colonies compared the icy Hudson's Bay and blackfly infested north Ontario, in the eighteenth century.

If such colonies manage to survive, they'll be very spread out, and very isolated, with the inhabitants having to be self-sufficient in most respects, or at least not depend on anything that can't be made in the nearest Prussian outpost. They'd probably have lots of contact with the local Indians and Metis as well...a hybrid Indian/French Metis/German culture (probably speaking some form of German as a primary langauge, though) would be interesting. The success of the whole enterprise, IMHO, still depends on whether or not German settlement can reach the Pacific. If Prussia establishes a settlement on *British Columbia's coast before, say, 1800, then I can see Prussia (and later Germany) steering immigrants there who might otherwise go to the USA...first into the Fraser and (if their claim goes that far south) Williamette valleys, and later, when/if they get a railroad connection over the Rockies, into the Prairie itself.

I agree that access to the Pacific, the Oregon country and OTL's British Columbia is crucial to a substantial nation being built, or to create a substantial diversion of 19th century German emigrants.

It's an interesting prospect whether the Prussian colony remains trapped in the Arctic or breaks out to the Pacific.

In addition to fur-trapping and some forestry products, what about the Arctic serving as a penal colony or a Prussian version of Siberia, s place to send-off troublemakers and political dissidents? Of course if that is the areas overwhelming character it makes it even more likely, but still not certain, that it will politically separate from Prussia after a few decades.


Razgriz 2K9: Well that seems very plausible, though I dunno if Prussia would ever be an ally of the Confederates. I would assume they would assume a neutral stance like the British and French would.

informationfan: if - big if - the prussians have a colony in northern america it will be a magnet to a lot emigrants of germany... in the us civil war these people will fight WITH the union, not against it...

so you could basically have the basement of the us-german friendship... say prussia send troops and weapons to the usa - they will be not really helpfull (the dreyse 1841 isn´t as good as the dreyse 1864) but they show the will to help.


Super_Cool There is no way Prussian North America can survive Manifest Destiny. The US will buy it or take it.

Britain was the only European power that could keep NA territory from American hands. Prussia doesn't have the navy to keep it.


Interesting that we translate the attitudes of OTL German immigrants of the 1848-1850s wave (towards slavery etc.) to Prussian colonial policy.

My thinking was that in the earliest years, British North American territories along the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence would be a decisive buffer between the USA and HBC. Later on, as the US expands onto the plains and develops interest in Oregon, that's when potential for a clash rises. The Prussian colonies might have a pro-Mexican or later pro-Confederate attitude if they think its their only shot for a continental balance of power against Americans openly saying their land is part of the Yankees' manifest destiny. Of course, appeasement of Washinton could be another strategy, but I would think that if Prussian HBC is mounting a stronger claim to Oregon Country than British North America, well then the US is dealing with a weaker competitor, and it really will follow a 54'40' or fight policy.
 
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