AHC: French Wales

Hi! First post :D


The only thing I could think of spontaneously would be something like wales and cornwall having retained close links with brittany, somehow leading to all of those falling under french rule.
That would probably also require a somehow weakened, nonexistent or at least nonindependnt england.

Could an early medieval frankish invasion of england, or rather south britain at that time, have happened instead of, or after the angles, saxons, jutes and whoever else came there? If yes I could imagine stronger links between what would become france and england leading to permanent french possessions on the british isles.
 
Hi! First post :D
Welcome

The only thing I could think of spontaneously would be something like wales and cornwall having retained close links with brittany, somehow leading to all of those falling under french rule.
Which links exactly? The kingdom of Dumonia/Domonée is massivly hypothetical, if not mythical. The thesis of a united kingdom, as Dalriada is at my sense doubtful regarding how much the flux of Britanny were turning it more towards continent (at least for raids) than Britain that have more ties with Frisia.

And for Wales, unless you're renaming Cornwall as the old "West Wales", i don't see which ties you're speaking of.

That would probably also require a somehow weakened, nonexistent or at least nonindependnt england.
Err, again i don't really see what are you meaning here. What is an inexistant Britain? Not at all states but only tribes, as Europe beyond Oder? It would need the total disapperence of Roman influence, that are basically in Britain infrastructures in Anglo-Saxon kingdoms and cultural too among the Britons.
No, Britain could be even more devastated, more chaotic, but not inexistant.
For the subordination under another power : no european power had the possibility to invade England. Between 400 and 800, nobody could. Thanks to continual raid, Danish had the possibility to slowly take desmenes and then to create states in 900, but it's not really a "regular" invasion, but more a take over.


Could an early medieval frankish invasion of england, or rather south britain at that time, have happened instead of, or after the angles, saxons, jutes and whoever else came there? If yes I could imagine stronger links between what would become france and england leading to permanent french possessions on the british isles.
Franskish Britain? No.
Why?
1)No possibilities, technically an invasion (not a raid) would be impossible : not enough fleet, not enough infrastructures, logistic died, etc.
2)Conquest, in gift-based economies as Frankish Kingdom was, is based on how much wealth you can plunder. Britain was full of ressources, it's true, but nothing that could be gifted for prestige, symbolical presence (such as, well, gold or silver, or gems). In fact, Britain/Gaul trade was one of the trades that managed to have a continous existance between the end of Roman Empire and the birth of Carolingian Empire.
No, much easier are expeditions against the Aquitains, the Lombards, the Bavarians, the Frisian or the Saxons for the Franks. And somewhat, more pluder to expect.

Except if we're keep the name "Wales" for Dumonia, with an invasion at the turning of XII by nobility (such as neustrians/normans or even Bretons) that have only the goal to have this land and not a crown.
In these conditions, if the king (or the kings if anglo-saxons are still divided, bonus point if you have still a danish threat or kingdom in the north) don't react or he's defeated, yes you could have a "french" "Wales" that will eventually be culturally merged into England, keeping though important "french" traces.
 
Which links exactly? The kingdom of Dumonia/Domonée is massivly hypothetical, if not mythical. The thesis of a united kingdom, as Dalriada is at my sense doubtful regarding how much the flux of Britanny were turning it more towards continent (at least for raids) than Britain that have more ties with Frisia.

And for Wales, unless you're renaming Cornwall as the old "West Wales", i don't see which ties you're speaking of.

I just meant cultural ties, which I figured might lead to marital ties which then, at least if the system of noble houses and feudalism evolves as it did almost necessarily mean political ties. Given the dynastic politics of the middle ages, I could absolutely imagine a dynasty coming to rule over wales and brittany.
And such a dynasty could again in turn come under the domination of, or might simply lose it's possessions to, one french dynasty or another.
But I think it's rather obvious that the only way this could somehow result in a french ruled, or dominated, wales is if england doesnt manage, or try to bring wales under it's control.

Err, again i don't really see what are you meaning here. What is an inexistant Britain? Not at all states but only tribes, as Europe beyond Oder? It would need the total disapperence of Roman influence, that are basically in Britain infrastructures in Anglo-Saxon kingdoms and cultural too among the Britons.
No, Britain could be even more devastated, more chaotic, but not inexistant.
For the subordination under another power : no european power had the possibility to invade England. Between 400 and 800, nobody could. Thanks to continual raid, Danish had the possibility to slowly take desmenes and then to create states in 900, but it's not really a "regular" invasion, but more a take over.

First, I said england, not britain. Second, by that I meant england not existing as a political entity. At least not a unified one capable of coordinated conquest of it's neighbours.

My thoughts were basically: IF wales is to be french (by whatever plausible or implausible means) that pretty much requires that england doesn't grab it.
For england not take over Wales it would either have to be in some way significantly weaker than it actually was, under the control of some continental ruler with no great interest in dominating the rest of the british isles, or completely nonexistent as a political entity.
A french wales would be far more plausible if what had historically become the kingdom of england were still seperated, or of course if the king of rance and king of england were the same person.
 
I just meant cultural ties, which I figured might lead to marital ties which then, at least if the system of noble houses and feudalism evolves as it did almost necessarily mean political ties. Given the dynastic politics of the middle ages, I could absolutely imagine a dynasty coming to rule over wales and brittany.
It's very unlikely for any PoD before 1000 or even 1100. Before that, what makes a king is less the inheritance (altough it gives a great legitimacy) than the nobility acceptence (in a more or less formal election for some states).
Given that the transmaritime prievilegied links between Cornwall and Britanny (Dumnonia) are totally part of Early Middle-Ages, it makes it unlikely).
In a post-1000/1100 PoD these links, that have been exaggerated by celtomaniac historiography, are dead meat. The Bretons are, since the VIII far more turned in the direction of continent rather than Britain.
You could no more argue of Cornwall/Britanny ties for the searched goal.


And such a dynasty could again in turn come under the domination of, or might simply lose it's possessions to, one french dynasty or another.
Again, not only the nobility of a country, foreign to a frankish or continental dynasty would be hostile to the take over of someone being stranger, but if he's king and want to just rule the two countries, especially a transmaritime one, he better be prepared to regular rebellions.
Remember how Danish were eventually rejected as a foreign body, and how long it takes for Normans to be accepted.

The golden rule is : no random marriages, dipomacy by martial ties are systematicaly made in aeras where it's something interesting AND where the married side's family could intervene.

But I think it's rather obvious that the only way this could somehow result in a french ruled, or dominated, wales is if england doesnt manage, or try to bring wales under it's control.
Unless we're talking of West Wales, aka today's Cornwall, you have no maritial, cultural, diplomatic, economic or whatever-ic privilegied tie with Wales (Cambria). At least, not more Britanny had with Francia, Frisia or Anglo-Saxons kingdoms.

First, I said england, not britain. Second, by that I meant england not existing as a political entity. At least not a unified one capable of coordinated conquest of it's neighbours.
Ok, England. Acknowledged.
Let's say that the Godwin dynasty is simply butterflied, why not. If the anglo-saxons are even more badly organised, divided in more kingdom, you'll only trade an Anglo-Saxon England to a full Danelag England. Less powerful kingdoms would be easy preys for Danish conquest. Seeing how much they were surronding celtic aeras, i would bet that it could even led to a earlier conquest of Corwnall and Irish-sea countries.

My thoughts were basically: IF wales is to be french (by whatever plausible or implausible means) that pretty much requires that england doesn't grab it.
Not mandatory. As you said, the less implausible way is probably not the conquest, as nobody had the possibility to do it by not oversizing the income expected of the conquest.
The problem, again if we're talking about Cambria and not "West Wales", is how Wales are supposed to interest enough the Frankish or the French nobilty to make alliance, or martial ties with. Even in the wonderful (litteraly) case where whe have divided anglo-saxons kingdoms and no all-triumphant Danelaw, what is "interesting" is the south or the east and not the west.

For england not take over Wales it would either have to be in some way significantly weaker than it actually was, under the control of some continental ruler with no great interest in dominating the rest of the british isles, or completely nonexistent as a political entity.
Expect that you've probably made the position of Cornwall and Wales even more precarious : each kingdom, if we don't want them interested into the union, must have his own interest elsewhere.
By exemple the Sussex and Essex would be more present in Frisia, Mercia and Northumburia or danelawized or interested about the conquest of Lothian. And the Wessex, by exemple, would be interested about the raid and eventually the conquest of Cornwall, then Wales. I don't mean that will result in automatic conquest of Cambria (for Cornwall, at the contrary, i mean that exactly), but it would totally weaken Wales, making even more a marginal land, even less interesting.
 
It could happen if the Norman Invasion does not happen in England, the Normans could annex Wales instead of England or Have Wales and Brittany under Personal Union after a dynastic marriage.
 
So... effectively for wales to come under french control, we would need

1. A reason for french nobles to be interested in wales in the first place.

2. The opportunity for a french dynasty to actually take it over, by conquest and somehow subduing the nobility if pre 1000 ad or by marriage politics and claiming legitimate inheritance if post 1000 ad give or take a hundred years or so.

3. An england too weak to grab wales or for some reason not interested in doing so.

AND danish vikings in turn not able to or interested in using that english weakness to simply take it over?


How feasible would it've been for a french ruler who had control over wales to artificially play up any real or imagined cultural ties between brittany and wales? Would anybody even have cared?
 
How about England wins the Hundred Years War, which really ends in a united kingdom of England and France, with France steadily becoming the leading half? Assuming say, England is freed by, say Austria and/or Burgundy or somesuch during a particularly bad war with France/England, with a ruler from whatever the winning nation was, there's a chance that France could keep Wales and Cornwall, possibly due to the fact that before the *German conquest, a third kingdom was forged out of the Celtic lands, to resolve cultural conflicts and dynastic crises. This kingdom stays with France even after England secedes, and the two operate as a symbiosis, using their combined might and strategic advantages to keep England a minor power. Eventually, England rebuilds with the help of another outside power, and represents enough of a threat that France completely absorbs Celtica, or Dummonia, or whatever, and declares an Imperial Administration. This Guallic Empire would represent a dangerously nationalist threat to the rest of Europe, and the resulting conflicts would resemble the events from OTL between the French Revolution and Napoleon's downfall. Unless France ultimately loses Wales, Wales may have become a rather integral part of France's identity, despite still retaining its cultural customs.
 
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