AHC: French Catalonia

OTL, Louis XIII was proclaimed as count of Barcelona and offered the rule of Catalonia during the Segadors Revolt. Richelieu and the french king didn't see much in this than a comfy bargain chip (that allowed eventually to hold Rosello and part of Cerdanya) and the region wasn't treated much better than it was during Olivares's rule.

A more concerned Louis XIII (if he manages to deal with other issues first, the least not being his own rebellious nobility), an early death of Olivares (that could likely be replaced by less competent men) and Felipe IV (likely replaced by his less competend brother, Carlos de Austria) could help for at least a legit french conquest of Catalonia.

I don't know if France would be able to hold it up to *2013, as the butterflies could be quite importants.
 
Could you have Catalonia included during the process of absorbing Septimania? Or is that just going to lead to something unrecognisable as France down the line?
 
Well, Catalonia is the direct result of Septimania being absorbated by Franks, admittedly. Catalonia would came from Gothia Lunga, aka Gothia (Septimania) extended with southern lands (OTL Catalonia)

The county ceased to acknowledge frankish suzerainty in the end of X century, as Capetians failed to help them against Almanzor. Admittedly, seeing Capetians possibilities, it was not likely to happen and I don't think Hugues I could wandhave an army to the south.
Furthermore, at this point, Barcelona and other Catalan counties were particularly autonomous already and their counts didn't seem to have really acknowledged Capetian takeover.

OTl, still, Frankish kings maintained a claim (poorly enforced) on Catalonia until Corbeil Treaty, as an outcome of Albigensian Crusade. You could admittedly use this.

You would need to prevent the Aragonese-Barcelona confederation to happen. A King of Aragon being Count of Barcelona would be certainly harder to overthrow.
Having renewed ties between Capetians and Barcelona would be hard, but not that unimaginable if Aragon is butterflied away or crushed by Navarra. Eventually, you may end with a still powerful and largely autonomous County of Barcelona (more or less like OTL Flanders).

Given the butterflies, tough, not sure if it would stand up to nowadays, something that the Louis XIII possibility (while not a given) could reach more easily.
 
Catalonia was also annexed by France during the Napoleonic age so a successful Napoleonic world may also do it.
This was done in early 1812 and - truth be told - even though Napoleon hadn't invaded Russia yet, it's hard to find a good "Napoleon wins" PoD by this time. Anyway, an ATL winning Napoleon might also take Catalonia away from his brother Joseph nonethless.
 

Delvestius

Banned
If Asturias is Conquered by the Arabs, the Franks would surely claim the marches, including Catalonia and it would naturally integrate into the empire given its ties with Languedoc.
 
Weren't the Franks that created the Spanish Marche in first place, "naturally integrating" them in their empire for the good reason it didn't existed before?
 
miguelrj said:
Catalonia was also annexed by France during the Napoleonic age so a successful Napoleonic world may also do it.
This was done in early 1812 and - truth be told - even though Napoleon hadn't invaded Russia yet, it's hard to find a good "Napoleon wins" PoD by this time. Anyway, an ATL winning Napoleon might also take Catalonia away from his brother Joseph nonethless.
There are probably ways to turn the Russian Campaign from the disaster it was OTL to a victory for Napoleon... A change of strategy or a different commander in chief for the Russians (I remember one Russian general insisting on taking the offensive: what I can't remember is whether it's Bagration or Barclay de Tolly). That still leaves the Spanish mess, though you can probably work aound it. That's Hard but not impossible.
 

Delvestius

Banned
Weren't the Franks that created the Spanish Marche in first place, "naturally integrating" them in their empire for the good reason it didn't existed before?

If you take Asturias out of the picture, most would look towards France as being their best chance against the Muslims, ensuring indefinite French control over at least the marches.
 
I realize that this is a bit out of the scope of what your looking at here, but the French planned for a time to occupy Catalonia, the Balearic Islands, and Northern Morocco so to prevent them from falling into the hands of the Nationalists, though I could be remembering that incorrectly. If Franco were to still win, you could see the French occupying those regions for decades, assuming butterflies result in a stronger French military that performs better in an alternate Second Great War.
 
If you take Asturias out of the picture, most would look towards France as being their best chance against the Muslims, ensuring indefinite French control over at least the marches.

1) You then first need Asturias to be butterflied away (Knowing if Asturias is depicted by christian historiography can be at least considered as partially accurate being another debate). That's not gonna be easy. See, Arabs usually preferred settle and rule directly wealthy, river or plain lands letting Berbers to the plateaux and letting to a de facto autonomy to Christians living in highlands or north of Pyrénées.
There's the likely case of Ardo in Gothia (aka known as Gaul for Goths), that ruled the remaining of Visigothic Kingdom in accordance (and maybe support) of Arabs walis.

That's most probably what happened for Asturias or will happen ITTL if we consider the highlands weren't conquered IOTL : in that, both Christian and Muslim historiography agree, the latter insisting the conquest wasn't worth it.

So, you will need : a motivation for a long (highlands) and not really motivated campaign (no great loot, not comparable by far to what could be taken in Gaul; and some guys raiding poor lands wasn't that of a threat), and to control the region long enough to make it part of arabo-andalusian continuum.
Something that would be certainly more costly than the control by proxy, Arabo-Andalusian favoured.

Alas, details such as endemic civil war after the 730's, not to forget the Berber Revolt would likely prevent that. I'm doubtful Arab and "loyal" Berbers would be enough to deal with, regarding their other urges.

Let's assume that Galicia-Cantabria line is purged of any kind of base allowing the developpment of an Asturias-equivalent by the grace of ASB. It would eventually gave more room to Basque principalities or kingdoms (Banu Qasi would likely favour them in order to break Carolingian surroundings) that unlike Papmpelune or Navarre kingdoms, wouldn't see their expension limited by Leon/Castille and Aragon.

That said.

2) IOTL, the counts of Barcelona did ask Late Carolingian and Capetians for help against Muslims. They didn't recieved, as there was no real way to send them reinforcement (lucky if they could meddle with matters in Aquitaine).
Barcelona didn't disnounced their vassalage because they found a side more likely to help them, but because Frankish kings send them nothing (something that, if something, isn't going to go better ITTL).
 
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