AHC: France/Russia perpetrate the Holocaust

Inspired by this quote from the Coming of the Third Reich by Richard J Evans.

"A historian once speculated on what would happen if a time-traveller from 1945 arrived back in Europe just before the First World War, and told an intelligent and well-informed contemporary that within thirty years a European nation would make a systematic attempt to kill all the Jews of Europe and exterminate nearly six million in the process. If the time-traveller invited the contemporary to guess which nation it would be, the chances were that he would have pointed to France, where the Dreyfus affair had recently led to a massive outbreak of virulent popular antisemitism. Or might it be Russia, where the Tsarist 'Black Hundreds' had been massacring large numbers of Jews in the wake if the failed Revolution of 1905. That Germany, with its highly acculturated Jewish community and its comparitive lack of overt or violent political antisemitism, would be the nation to launch this exterminatory campaign would hardly have occurred to him.”

So, what would need to happen for either France or Russia to go off the deep end and establish a organized policy of murdering their Jewish populations, on the scale of the Nazis?

Three rules.
  • World War I doesn't happen
  • There is never a Communist revolution in Russia
  • The Nazis never come to power in Germany
 
In Russia it might be quite easier. Some non communist revolution takes over Russia with a leader as ruthless as Stalin, from there given antisemitism was widespread in Russia the step to genocide would not be a large one.

France.... I think this one is ASBs.
 
This is a hard one. Germany's policy of extermination came under extreme circumstances led by an extremist ideology. I think you need a war or breakdown (ie a revolution) to bring extremists into power (without a loss in WWI). Perhaps with Russia you could have it swing to the far right after losing the Russo-Japanese war more thoroughly (maybe Britain gets involved and Russia is trounced)? Extremists take hold of the Empire and blame the nations issues on foreigners and "5th column" elements, eventually expanding towards Jews and other minorities that cant defend themselves.

France is a bit harder and Im trying to think of an extreme event that could compel them into such atrocities (an event that isn't an alt WWI).
 
If the Doctors' Plot is to be believed, he was.

There also was the Night of the Murdered Poets, the murder of Solomon Mikhoels and the suppression of the Jewish Antifascist Committee and the cultural campaigns against rootless cosmopolitanism and bourgeois nationalism. How far would antisemitism have gone had Stalin lived?

During OTL 1914, there was a wave of strikes in Moscow and Saint Petersburg, but they fell apart with the onset of the war. Absent World War One, they could grow and ignite another revolution like 1905. This revolution leads to a protracted civil war, like OTL's Russian Civil War. But this civil war is won by a hard-right, reactionary regime. This fascist Russia eventually gets into a war with Germany, and Jews, viewed as fifth columnists, are rounded up and sent to concentration camps in Central Asia and Siberia, where hundreds of thousands or even millions die.
 
I think it is impossible for the French to have anything comparable to the historical Holocaust. For one, I tend to think that the claims of France being so antisemitic are exaggerated: the Dreyfus affair might have shown that there were substantial parts of France that were antisemitic, but the entire point of the affair was that the other half of France stood up for Dreyfus against his persecutors. There were populist anti-semitic parties who had won elections in Germany during the Imperial era, so I'm not sure if I would really claim Germany as being less antisemitic than France. Furthermore, there were no seriously popular French parties before WW2 that were officially antisemitic, although certain ones had large numbers of antisemites scattered throughout their ranks. The Parti social français for example, had a nu,ber of antisemitic actions from its base, but its official policy was not anti-Jewish, although it did not like the large immigration of Eastern European Jews. I thus have my doubt about the French becoming radicalized to the extent that they will carry out a holocaust. Even if they did however, the French have other options for dealing with their Jewish population, like exile to their colonial empire. Finally, the French fundamentally don't have the huge Jewish population that the Germans had access to, so they simply cannot kill 6 million Jews.

The rules here make it even more difficult, after all if there was no WW1 the Germans themselves would almost certainly not have gone to the holocaust, and I think it unlikely that even Imperial Russia which did have state sanctioned anti-semitism would go so far as carrying out an actual genocide of its Jewish population as compared to pograms intending to blow off steam and domestic discontent.
 
Integralism would perhaps be the homegrown French ideology closest to Fascism, and while it would certainly contain anti-semitic elements I still have a hard time seeing them mass murder Jews. It would be closer to Italian Fascism than Nazism.
 
In Russia it might be quite easier. Some non communist revolution takes over Russia with a leader as ruthless as Stalin, from there given antisemitism was widespread in Russia the step to genocide would not be a large one.

France.... I think this one is ASBs.
Yep that's what I did in the EDC. WW1 ends early, Russia falls apart and stabilised for a decade, the Big Slump hits and they go fascist/nationalist/Orthodox/Slavic and start the Eastern War purge fifteen million or so 'Unnecessary Persons'. The usual suspects; leftists, Jews, ethnic Germans, homosexuals, Esperanto speakers et cetera.
 
France.... I think this one is ASBs.


Sorry, but i don't have as much faith in mankind as you, anti-semitism was common throughout europe, if germany could do it i'm sure there is a timeline where france did it.

Beside, if you switch the victims from jews to algerian muslims, you can definitely find a way for france to commit a holocaust scale genocide with a 1900 POD in algeria.
 

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Action Francaise + Black Hundreds = Holocaust. It's not that hard a calculation.

Pogroms alone killed 150,000 people in the period from 1918-1922. In prior pogroms the rioters would be encouraged by the secret police and given clemency by the Tsar. The difference is that Russian slaughter of Jews would be more like the Rwandan Genocide than the Holocaust.



Charles Maurras of Action Francaise was very very Hitler-like. He founded AF in response to the Dreyfus affair and blamed the whole thing on the Jewish Republic. In the 1920s he condemned Versailles for not being harsh enough, called for killing an Interior Minister (who was Jewish and wanted right-wing leagues disarmed), and was sent to prison for 8 months by issuing death threats against Leon Blum.

Maurras also thought that the 1940 Statutes on Jews was too moderate. These would be the laws that denaturalized Jews as citizens, and excluded Jews from the army, press, commercial and industrial activities, and the civil service. In 1940 40,000 non-French Jews (refugees/migrants) were interned. Then in 1941 the government required registration of Jewish businesses and excluded Jews from any commercial or industrial profession.


Petain's Chief of Staff after the war said that "Germany was not at the origin of the anti-Jewish legislation of Vichy. That legislation was spontaneous and autonomous."
 
Sorry, but i don't have as much faith in mankind as you, anti-semitism was common throughout europe, if germany could do it i'm sure there is a timeline where france did it.

Beside, if you switch the victims from jews to algerian muslims, you can definitely find a way for france to commit a holocaust scale genocide with a 1900 POD in algeria.
It isn't that the French are uniquely good or angels, just that there are reasons why holocausts and genocides happen, and the French have less triggers and less capability to act on those triggers than the Germans did.

The problem with colonial holocausts is that the colonial power is dependent upon the colonized population to provide for the livelihood and the value of its colony. If one kills all of the colonized people then the colony ceases being useful. The only time when this actually makes sense is in a settlement colony, like the British and American genocides in North America and Oceania. Algeria was a settlement colony, but the native population was very large and useful to the French. One can easily see extreme repression, vast amounts of loss of life, famines, etc. but an actual full-scale genocide of the population intended by the French is unlikely, even if there were "jokes" that all that it would take for the French to solve the Algerian problem would be to give every Algerian settler a pistol and 9 bullets.

Of course, you could simply be referring to a policy of famine and colonial repression, responsible for the deaths of millions in British India as one example, and which had themselves killed huge numbers of Algerians such as during the 1870 revolt. But that is much more mundane for colonialism and generally a byproduct of colonial policy rather than being the intent.

Action Francaise + Black Hundreds = Holocaust. It's not that hard a calculation.

Pogroms alone killed 150,000 people in the period from 1918-1922. In prior pogroms the rioters would be encouraged by the secret police and given clemency by the Tsar. The difference is that Russian slaughter of Jews would be more like the Rwandan Genocide than the Holocaust.



Charles Maurras of Action Francaise was very very Hitler-like. He founded AF in response to the Dreyfus affair and blamed the whole thing on the Jewish Republic. In the 1920s he condemned Versailles for not being harsh enough, called for killing an Interior Minister (who was Jewish and wanted right-wing leagues disarmed), and was sent to prison for 8 months by issuing death threats against Leon Blum.

Maurras also thought that the 1940 Statutes on Jews was too moderate. These would be the laws that denaturalized Jews as citizens, and excluded Jews from the army, press, commercial and industrial activities, and the civil service. In 1940 40,000 non-French Jews (refugees/migrants) were interned. Then in 1941 the government required registration of Jewish businesses and excluded Jews from any commercial or industrial profession.


Petain's Chief of Staff after the war said that "Germany was not at the origin of the anti-Jewish legislation of Vichy. That legislation was spontaneous and autonomous."
Action française was a tiny minority of the French political system with no real power. They had no chance of gaining power outside of being installed by foreign bayonets and any foreign power is going to choose somebody who is more useful to them than a glorified fringe group. It is comparable to say, the US Libertarians as something of comparable size and influence, and it is like them making an argument for something and 20 years from now this being decided to be atrociously evil, so the Libertarians would be put under historical spotlight and examination just as Action française is magnified to examine the French strain of antisemitism in the context of the Holocaust. There is a big difference between advocating for that and actually being able to gain power. Even if they do win power, there is a great difference between purging the Jews from government, enforcing harsh and discriminatory laws against them, stripping them from public functions, confining them to ghettos, revoking their nationality, etc. and actually proceeding to a Holocaust. Even for the Germans it took a very substantial period of time to actually escalate to the Holocaust, the better part of a decade.

As far as I am aware in Vichy's colonies they never went as far as actual killing, and so I am inclined to believe that Vichy's internal measures, while doubtless of their own volition, inherently had inspiration and a model in the German ones.

Even in a lost-WW1 scenario, which is not allowed in this thread, Action française is less likely to gain control of government than other parties, since they are rather elitist, have a tradition of being quite incapable of compromise, and were to my understanding rather poor at the actual business of winning elections. I would compare it to the DNVP in Germany for their best trajectory: extreme, often violent, destabilizing, and capable of winning some votes, but not enough to actually upset the system.
 
It isn't that the French are uniquely good or angels, just that there are reasons why holocausts and genocides happen, and the French have less triggers and less capability to act on those triggers than the Germans did.

The problem with colonial holocausts is that the colonial power is dependent upon the colonized population to provide for the livelihood and the value of its colony. If one kills all of the colonized people then the colony ceases being useful. The only time when this actually makes sense is in a settlement colony, like the British and American genocides in North America and Oceania. Algeria was a settlement colony, but the native population was very large and useful to the French. One can easily see extreme repression, vast amounts of loss of life, famines, etc. but an actual full-scale genocide of the population intended by the French is unlikely, even if there were "jokes" that all that it would take for the French to solve the Algerian problem would be to give every Algerian settler a pistol and 9 bullets.

Of course, you could simply be referring to a policy of famine and colonial repression, responsible for the deaths of millions in British India as one example, and which had themselves killed huge numbers of Algerians such as during the 1870 revolt. But that is much more mundane for colonialism and generally a byproduct of colonial policy rather than being the intent.

On your first point, i guess you're right at least on the capability to act on those trigger... France just doesn't have the military/industrial capability of germany nor the possibility to invade regions of poland/russia with large jewish population.

I entirely agree on this algeria with a post 1900 POD (although with a say, 1840s POD there were definitely calls for a "great invasion of africa" with genocide in the assembly - read some of Thomas-Robert Bugeaud's quote)
, but only if it stays with france, a france in exile in algeria IMO would definitely be in a desesperate enough situation in the second half of the 20th century to entirely depopulate large part of algeria and only keep a smaller number of "valuable" workers.
 
a france in exile in algeria IMO would definitely be in a desesperate enough situation in the second half of the 20th century to entirely depopulate large part of algeria and only keep a smaller number of "valuable" workers.

if France is in exile in Algeria, why would it kill off the only limited manpower it could have?
 
if France is in exile in Algeria, why would it kill off the only limited manpower it could have?

I have to say i am imagining a scenario with a communist takeover of france in a different late WW2, in this case you would end up in say the 1970s or 1980s with 1.5 millions or so of pieds noirs and exiles and 15-20 millions of algerian. By this point the insurgency would be the first preoccupation before even the economic viability of farms and cheap labor (after all it's useless to have fruit plantations where algerians work if freedom fighters control them).

A compromise is fundamentaly impossible, the pieds noirs will never want to give concessions, both sides have hated each other for over a century by this point, it was too late IRL post setif massacre. Decades later there are only three choice: The french leave (which the army will never accept, the pieds noirs will in majority won't accept unless france is democratic again, and i'm not sure many would be ok with going to quebec or spain especially if those country don't accept them), and even if a signficiant part leaves those who will stay will only be more desesperate,
The algerian kill the french, or the french kill the algerian, there is no other way, the algerian war really had a brutality that had no comparison among southern african colonial war and algerian were much more politically aware, united and ready to fight than people in Angola, Rhodesia or Mozambique.

I'm not saying it will always end in an indiscriminate genocide, but in a situation where the french only control cities and main communication axis, where they have dwindling numbers, the exiled french leadership is radicalized and sees no escape, i feel like they could definitely start killing everybody in certain strategic region. And even use WMDs (after all rhodesians used anthrax to kill over 10,000 and they were be in a much less desesperate situation than the french would be there). Really expect a brutality comparable to what would have happened if one of the israel-arab war had gone much worse for the israeli than any comparable colonial situation.
 
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Where can I find some of his quotes and more information about this proposed 'great invasion of Africa'?

There are some quotes there,
i don't know much about english language books about the colonisation of algeria tho
The debates in the assembly and military was about wether they should have just "assimilated and subjugated" the "indigenes" or outright exterminate them, and it seems Bugeaud's proposal for a "great conquest of africa like the huns before" received aclaims in the assembly. I'm not sure how this would have gone really, but i guess more of the famines that killed 1/3rd of the population, more of the gasing of people who fled in caves, harsher repression of the rebellion...

The french were absolutly vicious in the colonies, they invented the gas chamber to indiscriminately kill haitians men, women children during the st domingue expedition, the history of indochina and algeria is well known, shit, they even directly participated (not just political support, but military aerial support) in the genocide of 400,000 or 30% of the bamileke population of cameroon in the ealry 60s! And at no point in history were they nearly as desesperate as the rhodesian, south african, or even the portuguese were in the south of the continent, in a situation where they are in exile in algeria, which is already a big humiliation (and we know from history that when french were humiliated they compensated with their colonies...) they would eventually be very deseperate.
 
The french were absolutly vicious in the colonies, they invented the gas chamber to indiscriminately kill haitians men, women children during the st domingue expedition,

I've heard similar stories about Napoleon using sulphur dioxide to kill rebellious Haitian slaves in the holds of ships. But, I've never seen any actual proof of said claims.
 
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