AHC: France remembered as a country of warriors

Chiropteroid

I'm not sure if this should be here or in the "After 1900"-section, but anyway.

It is no secret that the French are known as cowards when it comes to war, which is ironic, since before the World Wars, France was probably the militarily strongest country in the World (correct me if I'm wrong)

Or as it is put in the Alternate History wiki:

Being a country that successfully fought every other country in Europe to a standstill in the War of the Grand Alliance, conquered most of Europe in the Napoleonic Wars, as well as smashing the English in the longest war in human history, and generally kicked arse in between, naturally France nowadays is synonymous with cowardice and military ineptitude in popular culture. Wait, what?!
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So, how can we make it so that France is known for its courage in battle and powerful military machine in the modern era?
 

Danth

Does anyone outside of the Anglo-sphere really think they are cowards?
Hell even us Brits are starting to use the insults to the French a little less vemonless
 
Emperor Norton I

Emperor Norton I

Have France fight to the death in WW2, or flee it's government to Algeria and continue fighting tooth and nail and supplying the resistance on the mainland.
 
wcv215

wcv215

Avoid WWII or have the French act against Germany in phony war or in 1938 over Czechoslovakia and it's pretty much done. All the jokes about French military incompetence are based or inspired by around WWII, with most people not caring about any of the others.
 

General Mosh

Prevent the fall of France in World War 2. In my opinion, that is literally the only thing that keeps the stereotype going. France fell in a matter of weeks after being invaded, but I'd argue this is not so much their fault as the fact that they were fighting an enemy who used tactics they had not seen before and had no expectation of facing. I don't think the stereotype existed before WW2.
 

pompejus

Personally I think France actively encourages its reputation of surrendering to lull is into a false sense of security. We start to underestamate them and look another way and suddenly they have found themselves a new Napoleon and try to conquer Europe again. But I am not falling for it. The moment the French enter Belgium, we are going to flood the country!

Hmm maybe we should stop flooding our own country and start flooding Belgium and Germany.
 

Turek

pompejus said:
Personally I think France actively encourages its reputation of surrendering to lull is into a false sense of security. We start to underestamate them and look another way and suddenly they have found themselves a new Napoleon and try to conquer Europe again. But I am not falling for it. The moment the French enter Belgium, we are going to flood the country!

Hmm maybe we should stop flooding our own country and start flooding Belgium and Germany.
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I'm absolutely terrified by the Netherlands, and it's all because of this board.
 

eliphas8

As far as I know Pre-World War II was stereotyped as a nation of chauvinistic imperialists who thought they where superior to everyone else. Butterfly World War II and generally keep France strong and you probably get people to think of France as that nation full of crazy imperialists.
 

Natte

To be fair I don't think most people where I live view the French as cowards, more like they view the Germans as a nation not to be messed with. I mean they fought the 3 biggest empires in the world to a standstill in WW1. And in WW2 they fought most of Europe, the French and the British empires and on top of that took on the 2 to be Super Powers and almost knocking one of them out. That's impressive considering the margins, so France falling in WW2 is no surprise nor shame.

The French are good and proud soldiers, the difference in fates France and the UK in WW2 was the channel, not the people.

That said, I guess if they had been able to hold on for longer in WW2 that would do the trick. Or maybe if France's military actions in it's former colonies got more attention nowadays, they are very much so engaged there. And ofc, and honestly this feels like the biggest thing, not refusing to help the US would ofc stop the dumb cheese eating surrender monkey fad from starting in the US. That to me was when it started to become much more common with the France surrender jokes.
 

tenthring

Banned
France never had a shot on the eve of war in 1940 regardless of whatever the fighting bravery of the Frenchmen was. However, the conduct of those in the Ardennes region, and the conduct of some senior people in France, was hardly a model of bravery. You can say that those were their worst units and they were fucked anyway, but the records still not great.
 

Desmond Hume

Have Gore win the 2000 election, or otherwise somehow prevent 9/11 and the subsequent American wars. I'm totally serious. At least in the United States, most of the anti-French sentiment that exists (among some Americans, by no means all) including the idea that the French are cowardly or incompetent in war, was ginned up by the Bush II Administration's cheerleaders in the run-up to the Iraq invasion. Get rid of that, and at least in America jibes about France's military weakness won't be so widespread.

The situation in England is admittedly different, but there you're dealing with stereotypes that have been around since Shakespeare (take a look at Henry V if you don't believe me), stereotypes that for much of that time period seem to be operating as an English coping mechanism for their own inferiority in the face of French military might.
 
Xgentis

Xgentis

tenthring said:
France never had a shot on the eve of war in 1940 regardless of whatever the fighting bravery of the Frenchmen was. However, the conduct of those in the Ardennes region, and the conduct of some senior people in France, was hardly a model of bravery. You can say that those were their worst units and they were fucked anyway, but the records still not great.
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Easy to say when you can't retreat behind the sea...
 

aktarian

As others have said, prevent French surrender in WW2. Winning in 1940 would be best, refusing to surrender would also do. The thing is that this episode alone is used for "proof" of their covardice and is then retconned for their entire history.

Which brings us to the fact that Agincourt, Crecy and Poiters are shown as typical french defeats while ignoring the fact that france won HYW. Not to mention when Napoleon is mentioned you get "And how did that end up?" while same is not applied to Germany who never won a war, unless you count supressing uprising in Namibia.
 
Xgentis

Xgentis

aktarian said:
As others have said, prevent French surrender in WW2. Winning in 1940 would be best, refusing to surrender would also do. The thing is that this episode alone is used for "proof" of their covardice and is then retconned for their entire history.

Which brings us to the fact that Agincourt, Crecy and Poiters are shown as typical french defeats while ignoring the fact that france won HYW. Not to mention when Napoleon is mentioned you get "And how did that end up?" while same is not applied to Germany who never won a war, unless you count supressing uprising in Namibia.
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They won more war when disunited then as a united country. In Belgium we have physical proof that the french are not and were never coward. We have plenty of old battlefield where the french fought (and won) and few french graveyard as well.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
There is a well-known historical site just a short trip from Paris

There is a well-known historical site just a short trip from Paris that should be a required stop for anyone visiting France; although the site itself is remarkable, the thing I remember to this day is the memorial wall at what is otherwise a very small and fairly unremarkable suburban/ exurban station.

There are four panels.

The newest one at the time I visited was inscribed Algerie, which included a hundred names or more; to the left of that was Indochine, which had about the same; then 1939-45, which had several hundred; and then 1914-18, which had several hundred more.

Essentially, the entire wall of the station was covered with names; if those of the various conflicts pre-dating 1914 where young men from the same small town - large village, really - had not come back, it presumably would have reached well down the track toward Paris.

Anyone who believes this canard - about France or any other nation - is a fool.

Vive la France

Best,
 
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aktarian

Xgentis said:
They won more war when disunited then as a united country.
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they've only won as disunited country. granted, some of those victories were against other germans so I'm not sure what that means.... :p

Xgentis said:
In Belgium we have physical proof that the french are not and were never coward. We have plenty of old battlefield where the french fought (and won) and few french graveyard as well.
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I think nobody who knows military history will claim that. Italians, on the other hand...... :p (OOC in Slovenia Italians are seen as cowards and incompetent, mostly because we (read Austrians) handed them our share of smack downs)
 
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