AHC: France-German Alliance

France and Germany were bitter enemies in the second half of the 1800's. Your challenge is to make them allied powers, with a POD no earlier than 1848, but bonus points if the POD is after 1860, which removes the revolutions of 1848 from the equation. This is hard, considering it was French policy to stop German Unification, which would upset the balance of power.
 
I remember posting the very same challenge a while back, whose link I will not add for fear of killing the thread. It was more specific, though. It required an alliance between the Third French Republic and the Second German Empire.

From what I recall, it was borderline ASB for an alliance between those two. The matters of Versailles and Alsace-Lorraine were engraved too deep in the collective memories of France and Germany. The members had a difficult time developing a scenario where both parties were forced together against a common threat, let alone a friendly alliance.

IMO, your best bet would be for a different Germany to develop from the Frankfurt assembly, one that would not go chasing after Alsace-Lorraine and be willing to cooperate with France against another enemy, possibly a Anglo-Austrian foe.
 
So a Franco-Prussian alliance isn't allowed?

Go with OTL. They're both in NATO, and allied today. :)

Seriously, though, a good first step is the Austro-Prussian War. Bismarck and Napoleon III discussed the war together, and Napoleon III agreed not to aid Bismarck. So if that meeting went better, France could end up pro-Prussian. Maybe not actually fighting in the war, but wit sympathies towards the Prussians.

That would be a great starting point for a Franco-Prussian alliance, and it's not too hard to imagine an alliance shortly after.

After that, have French/Prussian relations slowly get better. Prussia begins absorbing minor German statelets, but at a rate too slow for France to really care about, especially giving warming relations. When Prussia gets large enough (probably not as big as OTL, since this relies on less French fear of growing Prussian power), it renames itself Germany in a pompous ceremony. An early alliance (rather than just friendship) between the two would be best, so France isn't as worried about German unification.

An easy, cheating way is just to use the Revolutions of 1848. Prussia becomes a liberal democracy, minor German nations join in to form Germany (a major point of the German revolutions was that they wanted German unity), and the Republics of France and Germany begin the Entente.
 
Okay... going to take a very vague, short attempt at this.

POD 1862.

-Britain declares war on the US over the Trent Affair, France joining in.

-Russia declares war on Britain and France(US and Russia were on friendly terms then)

-Poland goes up in rebellion, Prussia declares war on Russia over the issue

-Austria and the Ottoman Empire take the oppurtunity to make a land grab at Prussian/Russian expense, declare war.

-The newly formed Italy declares war on Austria to get the occupied lands.

So you have US, Russia, Austria and the Ottoman Empire vs, CSA, Britain, France, Prussia and Italy

There's your Franco-German alliance. :D
 
Austria inplements some military reforms in the early 1860s.

When the 1866 war come, Austria beats Prussia ( as expected ). Nappy III intervene on Prussian side ( and gets something out of it. Luxembourg at least, possibly saar ). French intervention tilts the balance but is not a crushing victory.

After peace treaty, Germany is established from North German federation plus some southern German lands; rest of the German kingdoms go to Austria ( who had more or less stalemated french plus prussian armies ). France and Germany ally to balance AH military might.

CQFD.

AH and Russia ally to beat on Ottoman empire in the Balkans. France turns into constitutional empire. Uk joins France-Germany alliance for balance of Power. Italy joins AH-Russia alliance to get some Balkan territories.

System of alliances at turn of century :

Uk-France-*Germany entente
Russia-*AH-Italy coalition
 
fhaessig, how would Serbia and AH handle there Bosnian situation with Russia being an ally of both?
 
Austria inplements some military reforms in the early 1860s.

When the 1866 war come, Austria beats Prussia ( as expected ). Nappy III intervene on Prussian side ( and gets something out of it. Luxembourg at least, possibly saar ). French intervention tilts the balance but is not a crushing victory.

After peace treaty, Germany is established from North German federation plus some southern German lands; rest of the German kingdoms go to Austria ( who had more or less stalemated french plus prussian armies ). France and Germany ally to balance AH military might.

CQFD.

AH and Russia ally to beat on Ottoman empire in the Balkans. France turns into constitutional empire. Uk joins France-Germany alliance for balance of Power. Italy joins AH-Russia alliance to get some Balkan territories.

System of alliances at turn of century :

Uk-France-*Germany entente
Russia-*AH-Italy coalition

Italy joins AH? The same AH that holds Italian territories and beat on the Italian unification for years? Why does Italy write off its northeastern bits held by Austria?

Sorry, you answered the question, just nitpicking.
 
fhaessig, how would Serbia and AH handle there Bosnian situation with Russia being an ally of both?

Which Bosnian situation? and what makes you think Serbia is even formally independent ( PoD is in early 1860s and serbia became formally independent in 1878 OTL, IIRC )? It's more likely that it will be a protectorate - at best - of either empire. Whatever situation will be decided between Vienna and St-Petersburg directly and orders sent to whatever local power is allowed. Serbs may well look back foundly to the old ottoman days.:D


Italy joins AH? The same AH that holds Italian territories and beat on the Italian unification for years? Why does Italy write off its northeastern bits held by Austria?

Sorry, you answered the question, just nitpicking.

OTL, Italy was part of the Central powers ( EDIT : just to be clear, part of the CP alliance befoe WWI started ). So this doesn't seem too big an obstacle.

Plus Realpolitiks. *AH is bigger than OTL and seems stronger militarily ( it stalemated France plus *germany and is now allied with Russia ); and there are advantages to get. In this TL, it is the pieces of italy held by France and the role of France against Italian unification ( Rome ) which are pointed out by italian nationalists. Plus as I said, Balkans lands. Italia Irredentia targets differents lands.
 
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OTL, Italy was part of the Central powers ( EDIT : just to be clear, part of the CP alliance befoe WWI started ). So this doesn't seem too big an obstacle.

Well, yes, but it also ditched the Central Powers. IIRC, it actually had a secret pact with France to betray the CP for years before WWI started (could be mistaken on this). Something similar might happen in this case; an alliance with AH along with a wink and a nudge towards France.

A WWI situation of Britain + France + Germany + US support (maybe... it won't have as much support without getting ships U-boated) vs AH + Russia is weighed heavily toward the Entente, I'd say, even if Austria won a war against France and Germany decades before. So while Italy might be part of Austria's alliance on paper, it wouldn't really be part of the alliance.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Okay first we need to find the geopolitical interest which Germany and Fraqnce have in common. Hmm no I can't see it, France wished to be the major European power and so did Germany, and Germany was it. Unless France give up that ambition any alliance will be impossible, and I have a very hard time seing France giving it up.
 
Okay first we need to find the geopolitical interest which Germany and Fraqnce have in common. Hmm no I can't see it, France wished to be the major European power and so did Germany, and Germany was it. Unless France give up that ambition any alliance will be impossible, and I have a very hard time seing France giving it up.

Give then a common ennemy which none can face on his own. I did that with an Uber-AH ( as well as reducing Germany ), then Uber-AH-Russia coalition in my proposal. On paper, Uber-AH+Russia>France+Under-Germany, at the turn of the century at least. On a manpower side, the discrepency is huge, even if Industrial power goes the other way ( esp. without french investment to bring Russia up ). Basically, neither france nor *Germany are the prime power on continental europe in this TL. Some additionnal territory ( russia and *AH vs *germany and *AH vs France ) and colonial claims ( *AH vs France ) gets the ball rolling in the right direction.
 
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