AHC: Filipino politics vindictively anti-American

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
With a POD after 1903, how could we end up with an outcome where the Filipinos really hate America, like "Arab street" level hate?
 
In taking away the Pacific War, really no WWII, I plumb these depths where the Philippines gains independence under a reluctant USA sometime from the late-1940s to when? Here you have not even the potential goodwill of an American war effort to liberate the Philippines, instead a lingering anger over the SAW, the Moros, haphazard administration and likely benign neglect. Here the situation is likely the limbo Puerto Rico still hangs under, or the erosion of relations seen in Panama, the USA often fails to live up to its promises, abide by its ideals or accomplish true nation building despite our best intentions. Perhaps it is that hypocrisy and disappointing reality of actions versus words that would fuel genuine hate once we depart and leave no tangibly awesome legacy.
 
In taking away the Pacific War, really no WWII, I plumb these depths where the Philippines gains independence under a reluctant USA sometime from the late-1940s to when? Here you have not even the potential goodwill of an American war effort to liberate the Philippines, instead a lingering anger over the SAW, the Moros, haphazard administration and likely benign neglect. Here the situation is likely the limbo Puerto Rico still hangs under, or the erosion of relations seen in Panama, the USA often fails to live up to its promises, abide by its ideals or accomplish true nation building despite our best intentions. Perhaps it is that hypocrisy and disappointing reality of actions versus words that would fuel genuine hate once we depart and leave no tangibly awesome legacy.
Don't forget the fact that Imperial Japan, not having ravaged the Philippines in said a scenario, might be more appealing to Filipinos. Japanese Pan-Asianism in said world might be very appealing to Asians who need an anti-colonial role model.
 
Don't forget the fact that Imperial Japan, not having ravaged the Philippines in said a scenario, might be more appealing to Filipinos. Japanese Pan-Asianism in said world might be very appealing to Asians who need an anti-colonial role model.

Indeed, I think the rhetoric of "Asia for Asians" would have played far better had Japan simply waited for Philippine independence and had actually sought to develop the Pacific basin rather than strip mine it. Japan was following the Europeans in imperialism and colonialism for the worse, as the Europeans were growing away from merely exploiting Japan was just stepping into the task, her first act should have been to renounce extra-territoriality in China, use her concessions to build lasting commercial relationships and today she would be the champion of Asia. But without a war Japan might at least offer an alternative to America for the Philippines, she still has many things to trade and might need a big power patron.
 
Don't forget the fact that Imperial Japan, not having ravaged the Philippines in said a scenario, might be more appealing to Filipinos. Japanese Pan-Asianism in said world might be very appealing to Asians who need an anti-colonial role model.

Assuming the Japanese manage to convince the Filipino they consider them equals, would the ethnic dimension go beyond the religious one?
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
In taking away the Pacific War, really no WWII, I plumb these depths where the Philippines gains independence under a reluctant USA sometime from the late-1940s to when?

I think that could be a viable path to get there.

Here you have not even the potential goodwill of an American war effort to liberate the Philippines, instead a lingering anger over the SAW, the Moros, haphazard administration and likely benign neglect.

Could not the Pacific War have cut both ways though? The Pacific War did not make Indochinese, Burmans, Malays, Malayan Chinese or Indonesians like the French, British or Dutch any better.

One huge justification for imperialism is "protection" from third-party menace, authentic or not. By that measure U.S. colonialism in the Philippines was a massive fail.

Could we imagine the Filipinos being really pissed off at America for a) backing Japan into a fight and making the PI its front line, b) then failing to protect the islands from Japanese occupation and then (c) wrecking a lot of the place during the liberation?
 
Culturally, OTL present day Filipinos are forgiving or another way of putting it is looking forward to the future.

Even right after the Spanish colonization, Filipinos weren't majority "Arab street" level hate vs Spain. A comparison would be how Koreans, Chinese "hate" the Japanese but Filipinos do not even if Filipinos were also abused by the Japanese in WW2. The US abused the Filipinos from 1899 to 1910, but all was forgotten, or moved on, forgiven by 1930s-40s. Or Marcos totally abusing Philippines, removed in 1986, then his wife ran in 1992 as president or his son running for Vice President in 2016. In other countries including Arab countries, the dictator and/or wife would have been executed or murdered/assassinated.

Even OTL WW2, USA was the one who flattened Manila not the Japanese although with valid reason. Yet, no one really minded after a few years of flattening Manila.

Even if you somehow neglected the Filipinos as a US colony, all would have done is hastened independence. Arab street level hate would have existed if US neglected the Philippines as a colony during colonial period, but after that, I doubt majority of the Filipinos would still put effort on the street on USA after independence.

I would put this more into ambition with the Arabs. US interfered with Arab affairs. IMO, Arab nations think they are still peer in terms of power with the US that you just cannot interfere with what they do as Nation but have no actual power to counter the USA. The Arabs also have a history of ruling the world, older culture than the USA, The Filipinos don't have a history of becoming a great/superpower nor is older than the USA nor Filipinos have any grand ambitions to challenge the USA, or regional supremacy like some Arab nations which USA interfered.

I think that is what you need to change, the outlook/culture of the Filipinos of OTL and change it into how certain Arab nations think. But that requires a PoD far longer than the 1900.
 
Could not the Pacific War have cut both ways though? The Pacific War did not make Indochinese, Burmans, Malays, Malayan Chinese or Indonesians like the French, British or Dutch any better.

One huge justification for imperialism is "protection" from third-party menace, authentic or not. By that measure U.S. colonialism in the Philippines was a massive fail.

Could we imagine the Filipinos being really pissed off at America for a) backing Japan into a fight and making the PI its front line, b) then failing to protect the islands from Japanese occupation and then (c) wrecking a lot of the place during the liberation?

In agreement I do think that Americans overstate our role in "saving" or liberating others, in our eyes we see ingratitude for all our efforts while I think if we dig deeper into the American-Filipino relationship there is some deep seats anger over how our protection failed them. Reading War Plan Orange and the underlying dialogue one sees that the USA was not fully committed to defending the Philippines, in many ways the place just wasn't "worth" it. Under a different President, without other pressures globally, I could see the USA abandoning the Philippines to "independence" and simply walking away. We had too much benign neglect and sloppy paternalism towards the Philippines. In a decade after the USA pulls back I can foresee the Japanese exploiting the discontent, not that it necessarily offers a better outcome.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
I would put this more into ambition with the Arabs. US interfered with Arab affairs. IMO, Arab nations think they are still peer in terms of power with the US that you just cannot interfere with what they do as Nation but have no actual power to counter the USA. The Arabs also have a history of ruling the world, older culture than the USA, The Filipinos don't have a history of becoming a great/superpower nor is older than the USA nor Filipinos have any grand ambitions to challenge the USA, or regional supremacy like some Arab nations which USA interfered.

I think that is what you need to change, the outlook/culture of the Filipinos of OTL and change it into how certain Arab nations think. But that requires a PoD far longer than the 1900.

The anger and envy of the "has been" a power is perhaps always greater than the anger and envy of the "never was" a power.
 
The anger and envy of the "has been" a power is perhaps always greater than the anger and envy of the "never was" a power.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

Like this comic-
liHtTKp.png


When you stay rock bottom so long you have a zipcode there, there's not much else to go but up.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
A comparison would be how Koreans, Chinese "hate" the Japanese but Filipinos do not even if Filipinos were also abused by the Japanese in WW2.

So the Filipinos don't hate the Japanese? In casual treatment of the legacy of WWII in US media, its said "Asians" hate Japan. But, I always suspected that to Burmese and Indonesians and Thai, where collaborationist politicians went on to prosper politically, it wasn't a big deal. And I figured the Vietnamese had enough enemies later on to barely remember to Japanese.

But I had thought if anybody was going to hate the Japanese like the Chinese and Koreans, it would be the Filipinos.

So perhaps the anti-Japanesen sentiment in "Asia" is pretty much just a China-Korea thing.

Of course Duterte is making more and more anti-American statements now, and distancing himself from the U.S., but I think that is not expressing a broad, historically rooted hate. Rather it is just because the U.S. has a media and non-governmental organization and some bureaucrats who feel free to criticize him personally, and he's getting back at them for it. And that's even though the actual US POTUS does not care.

...but I digress...and now return to the main point.

Even if you somehow neglected the Filipinos as a US colony, all would have done is hastened independence. Arab street level hate would have existed if US neglected the Philippines as a colony during colonial period, but after that, I doubt majority of the Filipinos would still put effort on the street on USA after independence.

--And one Filipino-American who used to participate on SHWI, Carlos Yu, cited the American approach as not neglectful, noting a vast increase in literacy in the US period over the Spanish.

IMO, Arab nations think they are still peer in terms of power with the US that you just cannot interfere with what they do as Nation but have no actual power to counter the USA. The Arabs also have a history of ruling the world, older culture than the USA

You know when I refer to "the Arab street", I could just as easily have referred to "the Russian street" today or the "Orthodox street" in Greece during the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s. My only purpose in using these examples is in comparing levels of bitterness.

Even OTL WW2, USA was the one who flattened Manila not the Japanese although with valid reason. Yet, no one really minded after a few years of flattening Manila.

Yeah, here again, once years ago when I expressed a wonder if some Filipinos would have preferred we bypass them in our conquest of Japan to spare the additional physical and human destruction, Carlos Yu pointedly said, "no way" that the Filipinos were glad to see the Japanese go sooner rather than later, even if a lot of people and things were broken.

In agreement I do think that Americans overstate our role in "saving" or liberating others, in our eyes we see ingratitude for all our efforts while I think if we dig deeper into the American-Filipino relationship there is some deep seats anger over how our protection failed them. Reading War Plan Orange and the underlying dialogue one sees that the USA was not fully committed to defending the Philippines, in many ways the place just wasn't "worth" it. Under a different President, without other pressures globally, I could see the USA abandoning the Philippines to "independence" and simply walking away. We had too much benign neglect and sloppy paternalism towards the Philippines. In a decade after the USA pulls back I can foresee the Japanese exploiting the discontent, not that it necessarily offers a better outcome.

As an American, I'd like to apologize on behalf of fellow Americans of an earlier generation whom I did not know who both endangered and failed to protect the Filipinos against the Japanese. I find this an embarrassment of US foreign policy and military history that is seldom regarded as such because everyone is so accepting that the interwar US kept itself less involved globally and weaker militarily than its imperial obligations demanded. "Isolationism...what can you do?"
 
Top