AHC: fighter-bombers for 1939/40

Thats why I was a bit put off by the lack of detail on the success of the 9th AF using dive bombing techniques in 1944/45. The 9th AF continued to depend on massed medium bomber groups vs pin point targets like bridges right up to the end. I can make some guesses why, but thats not quite the same as the facts.

This might be interesting: link
 
P-47s making vertical dive bombing:
pg9.jpg 47diveB.jpg
 
The 90% inside 100 yards accuracy caught my eye. Thats better than a A20 or B26 in level flight at 10,000 feet. The trick is to drop a railway bridge a 500lb bomb needs to hit within a few meters of a critical stress point. The base of a pier or column is best.
 
added: * 1000 lb bomb was also a choice on P-47s. *

An interesting and expedient way of converting a P-36/40 into a dive bomber would've been to strengthen the U/C retracting mechanism so it can be safely deployed in a dive, mch like it was the case with F4U. Shaves plenty of speed thus making a dive bomb run even more accurate than it was the case with P-47s.

Here is what a 9cyl, 1000 HP engine 'buys' for the USN: SBD-3/-4.
Up to 1600 lb bomb can be carried, has a rear gunner, has self-sealing fuel tanks, nobody said it was flimsy.
 
.......... An interesting and expedient way of converting a P-36/40 into a dive bomber would've been to strengthen the U/C retracting mechanism so it can be safely deployed in a dive, mch like it was the case with F4U. Shaves plenty of speed thus making a dive bomb run even more accurate than it was the case with P-47s.
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Landing gear legs and wheels are plenty tough enough for high-speed dives.
Fragile UC doors are the limitation. Many aircraft limit UC retraction/extension speeds to avoid tearing off fragile doors, especially at some of the odd angles of attack (door vs. relative wind) during retraction.
I worked at a skydiving school that removed Beech 18 gear doors to allow them to dive steeper with UC extended.
 
Landing gear legs and wheels are plenty tough enough for high-speed dives.
Fragile UC doors are the limitation. Many aircraft limit UC retraction/extension speeds to avoid tearing off fragile doors, especially at some of the odd angles of attack (door vs. relative wind) during retraction.
I worked at a skydiving school that removed Beech 18 gear doors to allow them to dive steeper with UC extended.

pretty well located on the P-36, being fixed direct to the legs

p1390524.jpg


But the full coverage doors were removed on the P-40
WB%20-%20Curtiss%20P-40%2000156%20A%20sharkmouth%20Curtiss%20P-40%20Warhawk%20American%20WWII%20era%20fighter%20retracts%20its%20landing%20gear%2C%20by%20Peter%20J%20Mancus-S.jpg
to having folding doors on the wings. Less problems with muddy field takeoffs, but one of the things that added weight to the P-40 structure over the earlier P-36
 
Isn't this a cubed relationship? 25% bigger damage radius.

I believe that is gas or atmospheric overpressure from the detonation. Hitting solid structures with a steel slug of artillery or bomb case seems to have a wider effect within the structure than the overpressure front on the surface of the structure. Back in the 1920s the US Army detonated a variety of artillery shells & aircraft bombs on a ferro-concrete bridge (steel reinforced concrete). Detonating the projectiles while lying on the structure had significantly less effect than a moving projectile. The trick was hitting the structure with your cannon projo or aircraft bomb. Even trickier to hit that critical stress point within the structure.
 

Deleted member 1487

To me, it looks like it could work much like attack copters for the US Army if WW3 had happened. Breaking up enemy armor formation in counter attacks, breaking up strong points while attacking, and breaking up artillery parks. I am working under the assumption that these units would respond quicker to army needs than the Stuka units. I sort of envision these units being used much like one uses artillery batteries from division/corp being assigned to support the focal point of the attack. If I remember the term correct for divisional artillery, it is the Primary/General Support mission. As to effects, I think it would vary by year.

1941: Probably not a huge impact the first few weeks of the war. Things just went so well. But these planes are capable of very rough strip operations, so they could keep up with the Panzers. There are battles in Army Group Center where Panzer units were temporarily cut off. These planes could help restore the connections between the advanced units. If reduces by a day or two these pauses, then some opportunities can open up. For Army Group North, these might be enough to break through some of the defenses that slowed down its one Panzer army. Maybe this unit can move fast enough that Leningrad falls or at least enough more is taken that it can be starved out in the first winter.

You also get stories of 1-4 heavy Soviet tanks holding up a Panzer division for a day. With rapid response from the Hs 123, these events should not be happening. I don't know if this really was a major issue or just makes a good story. I think you can take a lot of battles where Russian heavies slowed down an attack, and assume that the Germans break up this formation within a few hours.
IIRC the advent of proper SP artillery substantially increased the firepower of Panzer divisions from 1943 on...in a way the Hs123 could be an expensive and even more mobile version of that, but one that is more accurate and able to do recon and other tasks, albeit with greater vulnerability. Especially against dug in positions it would be quite useful:
http://www.allworldwars.com/Peculiarities-of-Russian-Warfare-by-Erhard-Raus.html
See example 22 for the fighting around Krasnogvardeysk for an idea of what would have been an ideal situation for Hs123 support.
 

Deleted member 1487

That fact alone means they'll magnify the effectiveness of German units...until Red Air Force fighters show up.
They already had army run recon aircraft.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_126
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_189
They were used for some opportunity bombing in 1941 too, but had much less capacity than the Hs123.
Apparently an adapted version of the Fw189 was a competitor with the Hs129 for ground attack, but lost out. Potential POD?
https://wallscover.com/images/fockewulf-fw-189-wallpaper-20.jpg

And the VVS fighters weren't really a significant issue in 1941. Stukas were free to roam until 1943.
 
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They already had army run recon aircraft.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_126
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_189
They were used for some opportunity bombing in 1941 too, but had much less capacity than the Hs123.
Apparently an adapted version of the Fw189 was a competitor with the Hs129 for ground attack, but lost out. Potential POD?
https://wallscover.com/images/fockewulf-fw-189-wallpaper-20.jpg

And the VVS fighters weren't really a significant issue in 1941. Stukas were free to roam until 1943.
I was aware of the air recce; its value, IMO, is underestimated, which is why I say this would be important in that regard, if it turns out less so in CAS. As for VVS, they will (eventually) show up, so I didn't want to ignore them...:)
 

BlondieBC

Banned
That fact alone means they'll magnify the effectiveness of German units...until Red Air Force fighters show up.

Yes, there is that sweet spot between the destruction of the Soviet Air Force in the first weeks of the war and the USA forcing enough fighters to the west the Reds can again contest the skies. And this August 1941 to sometime in 1943 is the time period when the war can be won.
 

Deleted member 1487

Yes, there is that sweet spot between the destruction of the Soviet Air Force in the first weeks of the war and the USA forcing enough fighters to the west the Reds can again contest the skies. And this August 1941 to sometime in 1943 is the time period when the war can be won.
And for the Hs123 to dive bomb with near impunity. It is also before the mass of Soviet AAA created a major problem for the Luftwaffe. In 1942 and part of 1943 even the He111 was able to level bomb massed infantry at less than 4000 feet without major issue. 2nd Kharkov for instance.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
And for the Hs123 to dive bomb with near impunity. It is also before the mass of Soviet AAA created a major problem for the Luftwaffe. In 1942 and part of 1943 even the He111 was able to level bomb massed infantry at less than 4000 feet without major issue. 2nd Kharkov for instance.

You asked a few days back what I thought the impact would be if this plane was built in mass numbers. I have moved to the positions that it probably knocks the soviet out of the war before the USA can have a major impact. The Germans will win additional major battles in 1941, the question is where. And this battle(s) probably tips the war. Either Leningrad will fall due (starve) to the faster advance of Army Group North or the Battle of Moscow goes much better for the Germans. Moscow does not have to fall for the Soviets to be devastated. Just the Germans taking a lot more of the suburbs and then losing these to the Russians over the winter counter attack will still cripple the Soviet war effort.

Just move the lines of Army Group Center 50-75 miles to the east before the Germans lose momentum in the winter of 1941/42 and I think it presents a pretty clear picture. Not to mention that we see much higher Soviet infantry losses due to Hs123 direct attacks and some more envelopments.
 

Deleted member 1487

You asked a few days back what I thought the impact would be if this plane was built in mass numbers. I have moved to the positions that it probably knocks the soviet out of the war before the USA can have a major impact. The Germans will win additional major battles in 1941, the question is where. And this battle(s) probably tips the war. Either Leningrad will fall due (starve) to the faster advance of Army Group North or the Battle of Moscow goes much better for the Germans. Moscow does not have to fall for the Soviets to be devastated. Just the Germans taking a lot more of the suburbs and then losing these to the Russians over the winter counter attack will still cripple the Soviet war effort.

Just move the lines of Army Group Center 50-75 miles to the east before the Germans lose momentum in the winter of 1941/42 and I think it presents a pretty clear picture. Not to mention that we see much higher Soviet infantry losses due to Hs123 direct attacks and some more envelopments.
That's a rather bold position. So you see the fall of Leningrad being fatal to the USSR? Assuming the Soviets do collapse in 1942 as a result of extra damage...do we see a desperate Allied invasion of mainland Europe to gain a foothold before the end of the year?

Back to the idea behind this thread though...having mentioned the French MB 150 earlier, if the French turn it into a fighter-bomber with some effect in 1940, might it get appropriated and pressed into service as a CAS/fighter-bomber for the Luftwaffe in 1941? Or maybe offered to the Italians for that like some of the other French aircraft?
 
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Back to the idea behind this thread though...having mentioned the French MB 150 earlier, if the French turn it into a fighter-bomber with some effect in 1940, might it get appropriated and pressed into service as a CAS/fighter-bomber for the Luftwaffe in 1941? Or maybe offered to the Italians for that like some of the other French aircraft?

The MB 150 series certainly look as useful for fighter-bomber duties. Marcel Bloch managed to stick two big HS 404 cannons within the small wing, those will wreak havoc among German tanks/AFVs and aircraft alike. Cockpit was well forward, so visibility was probably very good. Performance, however, was not convincing - the MB 152 was slower than Hurricane, another not that fast aircraft.
Germans might continue with the MB 155, powered by the G&R 14R engine, that was a major modification of the 14N series, feturing bigger/longer carnkshaft & crankcase, with center bearing - main features that saw increase of power by 1/3rd (1400 CV for take off, 1200 CV at 4 km). Or, stick that engine on the Fw 190, Bf 109 and/or Bf 110 fighter-bomber versions.
This is how the BMW 801-powered Bf 109X looked like, please note that fuselage is much changed, with far better cockpit canopy and U/C legs layout:

Me-109X.jpg
 
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