AHC: Federal Republic of South America

Jonjo

Banned
All of South America is united into one country under a federal system, PoD can go as far back as whenever, there has been unions before which fell apart but what if one stayed stable and grew as the other countries saw the advantages of a united economic system and how would Brazil interact with the Spanish speaking parts?

Also if this country doesn't turn into a giant banana republic and actually achieves industrialisation on a mass scale, will it pose a threat to the US?
 
kind of difficult, first the barrier of language: spanish and portuguese
also the point of the geography, really difficult to link due to the Andes and athe amazony.
the only way to see this, it will be by the hand of a dictador, a powerful dictador, who conquer each countr one by one
 
You could get a less balkanized south America conceivably, but given the barriers to trade and communication, as well as the linguistic divide between Brazil and the Spanish colonies, I can't see 'one big country' happening.

Nearest you can come to such a scenario would, I think, be a stable Gran Colombia (Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, Panama); a stable Peru-Bolivia (Peru, Bolivia, the Chaco); and La Plata (Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay, possibly Chile). Brazil would stand aloof, as would the remaining French, British and Dutch colonies.

However, you can expect these big countries to knock lumps out of eachother rather than co-operate in any form of federalism, certainly before the 20th century.
 
I love the idea but South America is just so dammed big (nearly 18 million square kilometres), with many great barriers (the mountains, jungles, rivers etc) that it is hard to see how one could build and maintain a heaving populated functioning state, even if federal.

Maybe with 21st century communications and transportation infrastructure but before that?
 
Just a few days ago there was a thread about Napoleon somehow ending up in South America and teaming up with Bolivar. Maybe that's how its done? I don't know if this union would include Brazil, as well, but it will be close enough.
 
Orko said:
Just a few days ago there was a thread about Napoleon somehow ending up in South America and teaming up with Bolivar. Maybe that's how its done? I don't know if this union would include Brazil, as well, but it will be close enough.

A Napoleonic South America could conceivably be created, but I doubt whether it would endure. It would a) invite the unmitigated wrath of the UK, Borboun France, Spain and the Netherlands and b) the same centrifugal forces - geography, language, transportation - would be at operation as in OTL.

You could get Nappy crowned as Emperor of South America (it would make an amazing timeline), but in fairly short order he would have to face the combined might of the great powers, as well as internal dissension.
 
Up through much of the 20th century, Argentina was on par with the USA for standard of living. Perhaps push the PoD of such a state where Argentina and Chile are combined. Maybe even Uraguay.
 
Can't think of her name, but the queen of Portugal, when the monarchy was in exile during the Napoleonic Wars, tried to claim as the daughter of the Spanish king, that she was the rightful ruler of the Spanish colonies. Somehow you could have her succeed in uniting a South American empire.
 
Troyer IV said:
Up through much of the 20th century, Argentina was on par with the USA for standard of living. Perhaps push the PoD of such a state where Argentina and Chile are combined. Maybe even Uraguay.

The problem with a Chile-Argentina union is that their union is a microcosm of the wider geographical problem of a united South America. They're separated by the Andes, and will chafe against eachother in any political arrangement.

Chile is genuinely awkward to be governed from anywhere else, given that the Andes separates it from Argentina, and sheer distance separates it from Bolivia and Peru. If there's a candidate for a nation which would be inclined to go it alone, it's probably Chile.

Much more logical would be Paraguay - it was actually claimed by Argentina more or less from the get-go of Latin American independence. Uruguay is also a strong, logical contender - culturally, it's much closer to Argentina, and just across the Rio de la Plata from Buenos Aires, though it was also claimed by Brazil.
 
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Probably an Argentina-wank from the early 19th century. Have them take Bolivia, Uruguay, and Paraguay early in a different outcome of the Platinean wars. Get Pedro II to die in 1840 or so with less competent leadership coming to the throne. Then have Santa Catarina and Rio Grande Do Sul with Chile and Peru during the 40 years afterwards in alternate outcomes to the Platinian Republic and War of the Pacific as well. Have Ecuador be bonded economically to the country with much of the less populated Amazon River Basin (including Manaus), Mato Grasso, and border areas with Brazil taken in another war. Colombia and Venezuela will still be wracked in civil wars and could be dominated economically while a trade federation is formed in the early 20th century, maybe even by WWI. Improved railways and an interstate system equivalent develop over the next 60 years, with Suriname, Guyana, and eventually French Guyana revolving back to the Federation in the 1970s.
 
If the POD can go back to whenever, the Brazil problem can be solved by two ways.

Permanent union between Spain and Portugal.

Spain colonizes all of South America including the Brazil area instead of Portugal.
 

Tamandaré

Banned
If the POD can go back to whenever, the Brazil problem can be solved by two ways.

Permanent union between Spain and Portugal.

Spain colonizes all of South America including the Brazil area instead of Portugal.

Doesn't work for the same reasons.

See, Brazil kept itself united for a number of reasons, one of them geography: There's no serious geographic barriers in brazilian territory. Its mostly plains, some hills in the southeast and the amazon, which Portugal/Brazil can easily keep for a simple reason:

He who controls the mouth, controls the river.

That's why Brazil goes more to the West as you go north: Portugal easily controlled the Amazon River by building riverside forts. Pretty much most of the old colonial cities and towns in Amazon are built around forts - Belém, Macapá, Manaus, Santarém, Óbidos,etc. Foreigners got a cannonball in the face. Spain simply could't compete with that. So, that means that if the North revolted against Portugal/Brazil or something, all they needed to do is have a superior fleet and any sort of enemy is easy pickings to be blocked and attacked when its most desirable, see Cabanagem. Take over the rivers and nobody can reinforce the cities. Today this would't work, of course, because roads.

So while the area around Brazil could be held as it is, there are serious problems for a ruler in OTL Rio de Janeiro to hold power in, say, the Chaco, or beyond the Andes. Today we got the logistics but I seriously doubt we will ever see a South American Federation at least for a century, if ever. Too many differences between countries, too many divergent agendas, and Brazil doesn't have shared story that would allow it to join its neighboors.

You've eliminated the Elephant in the Room that was Brazil. What remains is probably Plata and Gran Colombia. Plata could rule OTL Brazil and vice-versa, but things get problematic once you hit the Andes. Gran Colombia could probably rule at least until Peru and some of Northwestern Brazil, but beyond that it would be seriously strained.
 
So is there ANY way for a super-Argentina (e.g. one that includes Uruguay, Paraguay, and most the South Brazilian states) to get Pacific-front property at all? Maybe they could have access to what IOTL would be the two southernmost regions of Chile (which IIRC bypasses the worst of the Andes, despite being pretty much glacial), and just put up with the crappy weather?
 
All of South America is united into one country under a federal system, PoD can go as far back as whenever, there has been unions before which fell apart but what if one stayed stable and grew as the other countries saw the advantages of a united economic system and how would Brazil interact with the Spanish speaking parts?

Also if this country doesn't turn into a giant banana republic and actually achieves industrialisation on a mass scale, will it pose a threat to the US?

Have a cold war between England and Spain, during that time england hires out their soldiers as "mercenaries" for South American independence. Lord Cochrane gets lucky at sea and takes minimal losses while continually scoring victories against the Spanish. A second "USA" is formed with the southern nations that were formally Spanish. They wait until the next war that Portugal is involved (when they are looking the other way) in to "free" Brazil from "imperial rule".
 
You could get a less balkanized south America conceivably, but given the barriers to trade and communication, as well as the linguistic divide between Brazil and the Spanish colonies, I can't see 'one big country' happening.

Portugal and Spain stays united. They were united for 60 years between 1580-1640. Also, have the Council of the Indies get the east coast of South America. That might butterfly away the linguistic divide between Brazil and the other colonies.

However, you still have the Andes in the way.
 
First thing you gotta do is keep Portugal under Spain's thumb long enough for it to be as Spanish as the Kingdom of Aragon. Then you have a Spanish monarch consolidate rule of South America into one viceroyalty, probably ruled by the heir presumptive from Lima. Once you have a single administration, you can start to build a common culture. Or at least common enough for the colony to band together during and after independence. The best way is for Spain to retain Mexico, while losing SA. This creates a clear and present need for a united continent against Spanish reconquest. The rest is politics.
 
The problem with a Chile-Argentina union is that their union is a microcosm of the wider geographical problem of a united South America. They're separated by the Andes, and will chafe against eachother in any political arrangement.

Yet, somehow, the United States made it work with those pesky Rockies in the way, AND even without that conveniently short trip around ALL of South America...
 
The USA never expanded meaningfuly beyond the Rockies until the advent of the railway, and it was doing it a) as the source of most of the emigrants and b) as the power recognised in possession of the land in question.

Chile already exists, and isn't full of Argentines. The Chileans have an articulated national identity, and there are enough of them that new emigrants will be loyal to Santiago, rather than Buenos Aires.
 
For those who claim that there are language barriers between Spanish and Portuguese - in point of fact, a Spanish speaker could probably understand a native Brazilian Portuguese speaker (and vice versa) better than a native European Portuguese speaker. That's in part because, like how North American English kinda sorta reflects an older state of the English language, Brazilian Portuguese is more conservative in its phonology and its grammar and is thus close to Spanish in several ways that it doesn't share with European Portuguese. So it could be possible to have, say, a "Portuñol/Portunhol" or both Spanish and Portuguese equally as official languages in the hypothetical South American Federal Republic.

Now, granted, a super-South America is near ASB - everyone here knows that; it's essentially the Latin American equivalent of Seelöwe. So, too, is a super-Argentina - that too is near-ASB, given that the distances are too large (IIRC, the distance between Buenos Aires and Córdoba, to give an example, is about the same as, say, New York City to Detroit). The closest you can get to an actual *Argentina is really the area around the Río de la Plata estuary - so maybe Uruguay, maybe the area around Buenos Aires, maybe the areas around Rosario and Paraná. But to go any further than that? Heck, José de San Martín and Manuel Belgrano - the Fathers of Argentine Independence (TM) - were essentially extremely lucky in OTL that Argentina had what it has now (plus a few minor areas - i.e. the modern-day Tarija Department in Bolivia, which was ceded early on to Bolivia in return for a couple of towns). The reason for that is that the interior of the old Virrenato and the coastal areas (i.e. Buenos Aires) were completely different in terms of economy, culture, and outlook. Here, I could see both the OTL interior and the Río de la Plata estuary remain separate countries - that's how different they are.

Having said that, if you DO want a mega-sized country, then take the Peru-Bolivia Confederation and add on the Argentine interior (MOST, not ALL, of it). You could even, conceivably, tack on the Río de la Plata estuary area to Brazil - I'm sure the gaúchos in Rio Grande do Sul as well as the people in Minas Gerais and Mato Grosso would LOVE to go down that far, as that would reduce transportation costs. Those two, plus a surviving (Gran) Colombia where Bolívar doesn't act like a dick, would probably be what I'd see.

So is there ANY way for a super-Argentina (e.g. one that includes Uruguay, Paraguay, and most the South Brazilian states) to get Pacific-front property at all? Maybe they could have access to what IOTL would be the two southernmost regions of Chile (which IIRC bypasses the worst of the Andes, despite being pretty much glacial), and just put up with the crappy weather?

Hmm, that sounds more or less about it. That, however, requires very delicate timing, and opens up multiple questions - i.e., what to do about the Mapuche peoples? (Though technically Argentina DOES have Pacific property, if you look at Tierra del Fuego differently AND take Argentina's claim to Antarctica seriously.)
 
Hmm I think this is very hard too, specially if you consider countries that even with today's communications and growing economically such as Peru, it's very hard to maintain unity between its parts and an idea of a single nation due to the VERY geographically complex Andes montain range and the many cultures and languages cohabiting within it and other countries (Particularly in the Andean countries).

You could probably make a scenario where this happens, but it wouldn't last long due to reasons such as these.

Something else that you could do, albeit very hard too, is to somehow save the native nations and make the Inka Empire survive, make it grow up a little between the XVI and XX centuries and survive until the era of communications and faster transport. Also, give it a growing cultural sphere of influence, and then make the Inka monarchy decay and fall to their subjects. This way, you could turn the empire into several republics that, for some reason and given enough time, decide to unite into a federation. With the advanced levels of macro-organization that the Andean cultures had, it could be possible. Of course, the hardest parts would be to make them survive the European diseases and keep the Conquistadors' eyes elsewhere. But history is full of things that were unlikely to happen, so heh, who knows?
 
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